tuko Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Recently I've been thinking of the idea of moving the track rod from the back of the Defender axle under my Series Hybrid to the front. Inspired by a few threads and images here I think that it can be done. Also I think that LR had it right with the early series vehicles, why did they move the track rod to the read with the Defender lineup? I have be told that many in the UK do run this setup on their trail rigs, does anyone have pictures of these setups? I've been told and have read that rose joints are better than johnny joints for steering components. Also I've talked with 2 mechanics yesterday with one of them using rose joints on his turbo 850, that they have had no issues with the MOT here in Sweden as the rose joint is classed as a mechanical component. McGill Motorsports has plenty of rose joints to pick from and they sell good quality rubber boot covers that extend the life of the rose joints. Of course I'm at the point, that I have no idea what to be looking at. What is the thread pattern for the tie rod ends and how are people getting around the two joints in one location? I've seen where a huge bolt was used for the two rose joints. Here I'm assuming that some form of misalignment bushings are used? Appreciate further thoughts/comments/tips with this topic. Cheers, Todd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 They are usualy stronger than balljoints, but the question is of course what pin or bolt you are using for it. The trouble with a rod end is that they potentially wear out sooner as they dont have the springloaded wearcups inside them. There is a big variety in rodends (and prices of course), so it all depends what you get. I would be tempted to stay with ball joints on road going vehicles, because of the wear issue, but safety wise there is no reason you cannot use it I think. Have you considered the ackerman issue which goes in reverse when you do this, but people have done this and didn't found it a problem. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Good quality rod ends are worth their weight in gold. On race cars years ago I would only use Ampep Silverline or Goldline in the finish. Even really good aircraft spec brands such as NMB didn't seem to last as long as the Ampep ones. I was never impressed with Aurora. There's a company in the US called Seals-It that makes rod and and spherical bearing seals. The speedway and rally blokes use them to get a decent life out of their bearings, otherwise grit/dirt/sand has them flogged out in no time. I wouldn't bother trying to get anything to match the OE TRE threads, they're a bit of an orphan thread size. (11/16x16 ?) I'd just use something like 5/8" UNF. FWIW it's easier to get the ackerman you're after with a rear mounted tie rod, it can be problematic with a front mounted TR, depending on the offset of wheels you use, disc size, etc. Jam nuts can be an issue too. (although that's all that's ever really used on race cars and aircraft) A split tube and clamp has a longer fatigue life as the stress isn't concentrated at the root of one thread. Tony Southgate did this on the TWR Jags he designed for Sports Car racing back in the late eighties/early nineties. It surprised me when I read about it in Race Car Engineering or Racetech back then, but it makes sense and all I can assume is that they had a few failures on the race cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuko Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 Yes I have considered and read a lot about the "ackerman issue" and from what I understand as long as I can maintain the toe-in or toe-out there shouldn't be any issues. I have been reading a lot here from the many searches and it appears than several members of this forum have and do use rose joints on there steering. Have they moved their track rod from behind the front axle to the front? If rose joints was out of the question, then couldn't a person use a "Y link" as below to combine the track rod and drag links? Of course the next problem is finding the right size. Todd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Yes I have considered and read a lot about the "ackerman issue" and from what I understand as long as I can maintain the toe-in or toe-out there shouldn't be any issues. I have been reading a lot here from the many searches and it appears than several members of this forum have and do use rose joints on there steering. Have they moved their track rod from behind the front axle to the front? If rose joints was out of the question, then couldn't a person use a "Y link" as below to combine the track rod and drag links? Of course the next problem is finding the right size. Todd. I have been looking at doing this, using jeep wrangler parts from curry enterprizes. It would be good if the TRE is a bit beefier as the landrove one, to avoid them shearing, but than a stronger steering box also becomes neccesarry. I got as far as swapping the lh side swivel for a RHD (my truck is LHD as you maybe know). I didn't take it any further because there were a lot of problems to solve, mostly the panhard rod location, too many other things to do and the situation as is not that bad anyway. In the end I left it as is and resigned myself to carrying a spare draglink in case it does bend. But you might inspire me... Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Hi Todd, I'm glad that you have asked this and I await the answers. So far it sounds good. Marc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Classic ackerman has the intersection at the centreline of the rear axle. I've never plotted out the angle of the arms for a coiler front end, I'm guessing it's setup for a 100" wheelbase ? You want some ackerman, without it tyre scrub is a real issue at low speeds. (speaking from experience) I have to ask, what's the problem with the rear mounted TR ? Is it that it's a bit low and gets whacked ? Keith (Roving Tracks) makes his cranked so it isn't as vulnerable. I just use a Maxi Drive one (32mm OD ?) so it can take a beating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuko Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 I have to ask, what's the problem with the rear mounted TR ? Is it that it's a bit low and gets whacked ? Basically that's it in a nutshell. I have the TR guard, plus 2 sumobars that are already bent. Would love to move the TR to higher ground and get rid of the TR guard. By removing the guard I'd be saving over 5~6 kgs. NOTE: This year I have focused on getting the Hybrids weight down, so far she's lost 56kgs. Todd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyRoverlander Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I'm using heims, guess they're basically the same things as rose joints, from Ruffstuff in the US. Very good quality joints, with tube inserts and misalignment spacers. The LC80 axle I'm using used to have the trackrod behind the axle as well. But at least it sits actually BEHIND the axle instead of below it.. I used a highsteer kit for it, which at the time just became available. Together with the included new steering arms Ackerman angle is back to normal. Bolts that go through the heims are 5/8". Thread of the heim itself is huge! Tube size is 1.5x0.25" DOM. The reason for the trackrod being behind the axle is, I guess, as there is no room up front with a draglink and a panhard bar. I've only done 3000km or so with this new setup so I have no idea about wear yet. It's my daily driver though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenstream Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hi Here's another thought, just a kind of idea in the sky ! If you are using sviwelhousings with the forward steering arms both left and righthandside. Is then possible to change sides ? Take the lefthand one and mount on the righthandside ? This way the mountpoints for the TRE's will sit much higher ! Might cause some trouble with the diff. and panhardrod and what have I, but as I said it just an idea that hasnt been given any further thought. Came to mind as a spinoff when my mate wanted to mount the hockeysticks on top of the frontaxle.... Morten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuko Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Good idea Morten, but I see the panhard rod mount and drop arm being problems with that idea. Todd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuko Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 @ToyRoverlander I have seen the stuff at Ruffstuff and well impressed, just a shame that there is no "high steer" kits for Land Rovers. But with that said, just because there is none avail today does it mean that it can't be done?? Todd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I'm using heims, guess they're basically the same things as rose joints, [snip] Heim used to be a US brand name, much like 'Rose Joint' is a brand name that became synonymous with rod ends and spherical bearings in the Commonwealth countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 FWIW here's Keith at Roving Tracks answer to clearance problems, and good work shedding the weight http://www.rovingtra...s/steering.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I tried mocking it up, with the swivels left to right, but the endresult was very nearly the same. A disadvantage of doing this is that the caliper becomes leading rather than trailing, which means that the mud doesnot clear off so well, but thats a detail I suppose. I havent found an easy solution to avoid the panhard mount on the chassis though, interested in your solution. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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