no 2nd gear

[animal]

hi I'm having a bit of a headache with my series at the moment it all started when I was pulling away after stopping, went up to 1st,2nd 3rd had to stop to let a car past then went to pull away 1st ok but no 2nd ? couldn't sort so changed gearbox for a very sweet 2nd hand unit all fine, sweet as a nut off road for 2hr went to drive home approx 15 miles got about half way again stopped to turn right then again no 2nd !! seems strange that its the same fault.

now my truck has a Detroit permanent locker in rear and a limited slip Truetrack in the front which I have run with for approx 10yrs with no trouble with a 200tdi engine and 33" tyres

Do you think it could be a fault with the rear or front locker causing wind up ? I have checked the rear output nut nice and tight.

any thoughts would be great

thanks Animal

[Bowie69]

Did you swap selector housing over from old gearbox?

Has an engine/gearbox mount failed and moved forward/backward meaning the stick no longer moves far enough?

[animal]

hi no I fitted as was but used the old gear stick that was in my truck, have replaced gearbox mounts at time when changed gearbox, I take it you mean the selector rods and not the gear stick.

thanks Animal

[Bowie69]

I meant the stick -fouling on the transmission tunnel, but with new mounts I would be surprised.

Tried another gearstick? Could be worn...

[animal]

no I will try another gear stick on the weekend as not at workshop until then, also going to see if adjusting the clutch shaft for clearance makes any difference

​ thanks Animal

[animal]

update just took out floor and adjusted clutch shaft 10mmfor then thought what the hell and really forced it into 2nd and now seems ok but still jumping out of 3rd now I'm really stumped !!

Animal

[Snagger]

It could be a loose nut on the back of the main shaft, having broken the tab washer.

[animal]

I have checked the nut on the rear of the out shaft still tight

thanks

[bill van snorkle]

If also jumping out of 3rd gear,It sounds as though the circlip/thrust washers that retain 2nd and 3rd gear in place on the mainshaft have given up .If this is the case there is a real danger that 2nd and 3rd gear sets will get broken if you continue to drive the truck.

You don't state what series your box is, but series 1,2 and 2a boxes have a 2nd gear adjusting bolt under the rectangular steel cover plate on top of the gearbox top.Occasionally this bolt will work loose, unscrew and prevent full engagement of 2nd gear.

[animal]

hi yes its a series 2 box so a strip down and rebuild is the only way its as I thought

thanks for your help

Animal

[Snagger]

If it's any consolation, mine broke its third gear yesterday - lots of heavy chattering in third and slight occasional chattering in neutral, confirmed but two whole gear teeth in the drained oil today. I have a Tdi too. Might just be too much torque in the long run - the box has probably done the thick end of 100,000 miles, with rebuild 40,000 ago and about 25-30k behind the Tdi.

[Phil Hancock]

I took 1 1/2 teeth off the layshaft 3rd gear with a 2.25d a few years ago now. Series 3 suffix A box. It did knock somewhat in 3rd and i was towing our old twin axle Eldis 6 berth van from Southam to Stapleford plus carrying my 4" scale traction engine in the landy at the same time, the teeth fell off about 4 miles into the journey, i still had to drive back as well. Scream the nuts off it in 2nd and quickly into top when ever possible to avoid 3rd.

[Snagger]

That's another benefit of an overdrive - 2nd, 2nd +OD, 4th...

[Snagger]

I think something went through the gears to break the teeth off - there's a big impression of something at the root of each broken tooth.

[bill van snorkle]

Just wondering if the guys breaking boxes with TDI engines have also changed their diffs to 3.54:1's ?

That's a no no for any sort of series gearbox reliability,especially if towing.

3rd gear failure if not due to bronze bush/circlip/thrust washer issues,in some cases are due to the gears swallowing broken 3rd/4th synchro spring clips, or broken off pieces of 1st/2nd synchro hub (series3). Another way I once experienced a loss of drive in 2nd gear is when the ring of dog clutch teeth sheared off the gear. Either way it's gearbox out for a rebuild.

[Snagger]

I've previously had the synchro spring failure - that's what prompted the gear box to be rebuilt 40k ago. And I have been using 3.54 diffs for about six months. It had occurred to me that they may be putting extra strain on the gear box, especially since steep hills in town have to be done in third gear.

[bill van snorkle]

I've previously had the synchro spring failure - that's what prompted the gear box to be rebuilt 40k ago. And I have been using 3.54 diffs for about six months. It had occurred to me that they may be putting extra strain on the gear box, especially since steep hills in town have to be done in third gear.

3.54:1 diffs raise the gearing by 33%. For some perspective on how it places extra strain on the gearbox,that is equivelant to fitting 42 inch diameter tyres in place of the standard 31.5''(7.50x16}.

Also, I wouldn't be happy with a 4wd with an overall gear ratio in low range 1st gear of only about 27.6:1 vs 40.6:1 standard, regardless of what engine is up front.

[Snagger]

I previously fitted 2.8:1 low gears in place ofhe standard 2.35:1, so low range is not so badly affected. I did look at 4.1 diff costs, but it's expensive. I'd prefer that ratio, though, as 4.71 is badly undergeared while 3.54 is overgeared to about the same amount. 4.1 would be ideal for road use in high range, and would also result in the standard overall low ratio with the gear sets I retrofit.

[bill van snorkle]

I previously fitted 2.8:1 low gears in place ofhe standard 2.35:1, so low range is not so badly affected. I did look at 4.1 diff costs, but it's expensive. I'd prefer that ratio, though, as 4.71 is badly undergeared while 3.54 is overgeared to about the same amount. 4.1 would be ideal for road use in high range, and would also result in the standard overall low ratio with the gear sets I retrofit.

Snagger, now that I have learned through the ' axle wrap' thread, that your vehicle is a heavy 109 fitted out for expeditions,I even more seriously question the wisdom of running 3.54:1 diffs, unless you carry a complete spare gearbox with you on your more remote journeys. Years ago I met a group of overlanders that had driven their 109 LWB 2 1/4 deisel from Northern Europe to Singapore, shipped it over to Australia and had almost driven to the tip of Cape York Peninsular, when half way across the Jardine River their vehicle snapped its layshaft in half, taking a few gears with it. Well, being in such a remote, little travelled area for that time of year, they had to wait a week for the next travellers to arrive with a two way radio to contact the nearest LandRover dealer several hundred miles south, to order the necessary parts and have them airdropped in another fortnight later. This vehicle had 4.7 diffs so the main box wouldn't have been under as much stress as yours.

You stated on the other thread that your vehicle has bitten you on the derrier a number of times. I wish you happy travels, so I hope you wear chain link underwear, because I can almost guarantee that your present arrangement has some very sharp teeth and will likely some day attempt to take another large bite, usually in some remote and inhospitable location in which to do a gearbox removal and rebuild.

If the vehicle is that heavy, fit lower ratio diffs back in, fit good quality free wheel hubs so that you can use low ratio 2wd to minimise use of high 2nd gear and instead use low range 4th and 3rd on steep mountain roads.If you don't already know how, practice changing from high range to low range and back again, so that the stronger transfercase does the heavy pulling instead of the fragile gearbox. That was the only way I was successfully and reliably able to tow our almost 3 ton caravan around Australia in my old 2a SWB years ago when it still had the Landy box fitted.

[Snagger]

Thanks, Bill. The car is pretty heavy, but is rarely used as an exped vehicle and more for my commute. That means it's usually empty and the front tanks (I have the standard rear tank and twin underseat front tanks) are rarely used. Even the 20l water can in the locker is kept empty unless on a trip. The rack, winch, underbody protection and empty tanks all add up, though, and throw in the bonnet spare, a load of sound proofing and a thicker than standard tub floor and I reckon it comes to a few hundred kgs extra over a standard 109 hard top. The trips I like aren't really into dangerously remote areas - so far I have only done the Alps trip and some camping holidays around the UK and France, and I don't fancy desert driving, but I am concerned about the strain on the transmission - the gear box is probably the weakest link, whereas I'd prefer it to be the hub drive flanges. I've been looking at the prices of 4.1 diffs, which would be the best for driving, but it still puts more strain on the gear box than the original 4.71s.

I got about 10% fuel saving with the 3.54s (not to be ignored at current prices), and it's much more comfortable to drive at 60-70mph, but is overgeared as much as 4.71 was undergeared. The thing is, 4.1s will cost about £750 for the gear sets alone, and if it still results in broken boxes, it'll be an expensive mistake. On the other hand, I have a mint condition 4.71 Salisbury axle centre sitting on my garage floor, kept for its innards, and getting a good second hand front 4.71 costs no more than a round in a pub. I want the comfort and estimated 15% fuel saving of the 4.1s, but the reliability of the 4.7s... Never simple, is it!

I do wonder, though, if the cause of the gear breaking had another factor - for a while before it broke, the gear lever was moving fore and aft on pressing or lifting the accelerator, suggesting the third gear wheel had excess end float, while none of the other gears did this. I read (on here somewhere, not a book, US or otherwise ) that excess end float can result in stripped teeth, and I have also heard from many sources that it's usually second which tends to strip on Series units. With the unit stripped, I found a tiny amount of float - something in the order of .25mm, as a guess. What do you think?

It does all make fitting a short nosed LT77 or R380 and LT230, (probably a Discovery version) more tempting, both to sort the gear box weakness and the overall gearing out. But that then involves chassis chopping and a lot of work around the cab floor and seat base, and makes the vehicle less of a SIII and more a leaf sprung Defender. The long term plan is to restore my RRC and use that daily, with the 109 become a trips vehicle, in which case 4.71s make even more sense.

[bill van snorkle]

End float of 0.25mm is only 10 thou which wouldn't cause gear breakage on its own. Does your vehicle ever pop out of 4th gear? A common fault I found over the years is when fitting non standard engines to series gearboxes is the failure to dial in the adaptor plate, or in the case of 200/300TDI engines, dial in the flywheel housing. Runout here of more than a few thou causes the primary shaft to run offcentre, which also causes the front of the mainshaft to wobble slightly usually resulting in slipping out of 4th gear, but also misaligns the gear mesh of 3rd gear that can lead to failure, especially if the box is overstressed with a more powerfull engine pulling higher ratio diffs or the high ratio transfercase conversions.

Series bellhousings and flywheel housings are machined and spiggoted together to run true. 200/300tdi flywheel housings don't have a spiggot bore to centralise the series bellhousing, and depending on the bellhousing bolts to centre the two is not always very reliable. The proper method is to drill the bell housing bolt holes slightly oversize, bolt just the bare bellhousing onto the flywheel housing with a magnetic base dial indicator attached to the flywheel and the clock plunger against the primary shaft bearing bore to register runout by turning the engine over. Runout is adjusted by loosening the bellhousing bolts slightly and tapping the bellhousing in the appropriate direction. Once centred, 2 more holes are drilled through both bellhousing and flywheel housing and a pair of dowells fitted. From the above description you can see why hardly anyone bothers to do the job correctly.

[Snagger]

When I first did the conversion, I did have problems with 4th, but the spigot bush hadn't been replaced, as was specified, by the engineering shop when they did the rebore and grind. Replacing it sorted it out and I haven't had even a twitch from the gear stick since, just in third.

My engine is a Discovery 200, modified with Defender manifolds and mounts to fit the 109, and the flywheel housing is a pretty snug fit into the bell housing. I think its alignment is alright, though I haven't gone to the lengths you describe - I figured that any significant misalignment would prevent the primary pinion sliding through the splines and into the new spigot bush without a hell of a lot of force to slide the clutch plates while engaged, and they didn't need much pressure at all to mate up. Conveniently, the Tdis and Series engines share the same spigot bush!

You see what I mean about my luck, though - loads of people run a Tdi and coiler axles on leafs or 3.54s in Series axles, but I seem to be the only one coming a cropper! A couple of friends, one who is a REME mechanic and the other a very experienced LR mechanic, reckon the gear may have had a metalurgical fault exacerbated by the oilway cross drilling. Maybe... It still seems a little too coincidental with being six months after the axle swap for me to dismiss it, and I can't help but feel you're right about it being the diff ratios.

[bill van snorkle]

My engine is a Discovery 200, modified with Defender manifolds and mounts to fit the 109, It still seems a little too coincidental with being six months after the axle swap for me to dismiss it, and I can't help but feel you're right about it being the diff ratios.

I think the 42'' diameter tyre analogy explains your problem reasonably well.

Another analogy would be two heavy vehicles attempting to have a Tug of War using a piece of string.Your more powerful engine and high ratio diffs representing the vehicles, and your series gearbox represented by the string. You are killing your gearbox from both ends.

[Snagger]

I get the analogy - it's like a pedal cycle: while in theory, the cyclist can only apply so much torque on the crank shaft and front sprocket (input pinion), the reality is that a lower total gearing results in rapid enough acceleration that the cyclist can't keep up with the torque demand, so the forces in the crank and front sprocket are not the cyclist's maximum. It's on the velodrome cycles with the fixed high gear and painfully slow acceleration where the cyclist's maximum force is transmitted through the crank, sprocket and chain because the wheel can't keep up, so those parts get a hammering and chains often snap.

It'll be a shame to lose the quieter cruise and 10% fuel saving, but what's the point in that if I keep blowing transmissions - that's more costly than 10% more fuel and a damned sight more inconvenient! It'd be nice to know if the 4.1s would work, but it seems risky. Yet again, though, it's a mod that lots of people run successfully but causes me trouble, even though the vehicle gets good maintenance and is driven sympathetically. God hates me!

[bill van snorkle]

God hates me!

He's not too enamoured with me either, but instead of hitting me with LandRover related issues, he kicks me in the guts with personal tragedies.When it's my turn to meet up with the old #%$? I'll be taking my baseball club with me.