Engine and gearbox question

[Tetsu0san]

Firstly, sorry for all the questions, my mind is running on overdrive at the moment!

Anyway, I am going to remove the transit engine from my 110 and replace it with a 200Tdi from a Discovery. The gearbox in the 110 is an LT77 with a short bellhousing so this should be an easy enough transplant. However, the original engine mounts have been removed in favour of the ones for the transit engine so I will have to put some more in. And this is my dilemma.

On later Defender's with a 300Tdi, the engine is closer to the radiator than the 200Tdi and earlier engines, and I know they use a longer bellhousing/gearbox combination. I think this engine position is far better as you have access to the rear of the engine, easier to get to the bellhousing bolts etc. So I was thinking about putting the 200Tdi nearer the front.

Now, if I were to do this, how easy is it to put the engine mounts further forward on the chassis and has anyone done this? Pipework shouldn't be too much of an issue and I have access to some 300Tdi Discovery bits so this should help. But am I just making work for myself of is there actually a benefit to doing this?

I realise I will have to find another gearbox, so if I were to source a Discovery gearbox, could I unbolt the gear stick assembly from my old LT77 gearbox and bolt it to the Discovery gearbox, or are they just too different? I could source a Defender 300Tdi gearbox but it seems that Discovery gearboxes are a lot easier to come by. I don't like the idea of having a standard Discovery gearbox because of having to modify the seatbox to accomodate the Discovery gearstick. I don't really want to go automatic either.

Any help/advise would be warmly welcomed.

[Aragorn]

If you keep your existing gearbox mounts, but use the longer gearbox, you'll end up with an engine thats about 2" further back from a normal 300tdi defender, but still much further forward than the stock position. This will also mean you retain the existing propshafts, But means all the engine pipework will need tweaked to fit.

Alternatively, you could remove the stock gearbox mounts, and fit a defender 300tdi crossmember, which moves the transmission 2" forward, and puts the engine exactly where it would be on a 300tdi defender. The advantage of this being that all the engine bay hoses and pipework would then be standard 300tdi spec items, as well as the exhaust etc, but ofcourse you'll need 300tdi props. You can use the disco front prop, but you'd need a 300tdi 110 rear prop.

The engine mounts will need welded onto the chassis either way, i guess if you use the stock 300 position you can get measurements from someone with a factory 300 to get the position right. Otherwise you'd have to swing the engine into place sitting on the gearbox mounts, and tack the mounts up in the right position.

If you use the discovery gearbox, you need to open it up and swap the selector shaft for a defender one, or Ashcrofts do an adaptor piece, if you want to keep the proper defender shifter.

I guess converting the disco box makes sense if you buy a disco donor vehicle for the engine and box, as you've got a known good box that you've driven and are happy with. If you went this route, i would also try to get a 300tdi, as they share more parts commonality with the defender version of the engine, and thus you will find any conversion parts (things like PAS lines, boost hoses, oil pipes etc etc) are all just nice standard off the shelf parts.

[Snagger]

A 300 Tdi will also get you an R380, which is a better and nicer box than the LT77S, if condition is comparable.

[Tetsu0san]

I already have the 200Tdi which I know is a good engine so I am going to use that. I have an old 300Tdi which needs rebuilding (was ran on no oil by a complete numpty ) so this could be a project for next time.

If I put the 200Tdi in the standard location without any other mods I am going to need to get longer oil cooler hoses than the Discovery will provide?

[Aragorn]

The disco hoses should reach if you put the engine in the standard location, but there are various fittings on 200tdi's that changed to metric on 300tdi's, so the 300 pipes might reach, but not actually fit. I'm not sure which pipes this affects though, you might be fine. 200tdi disco pipes might be required for some things i guess.

Given you dont already have a transmission, and wont be buying a donor vehicle i'd opt to keep things simple by purchasing a defender box.

[Tetsu0san]

I basically have a 200Tdi Discovery as the donor vehicle so I want to use the engine and whatever I can from this. What I was hoping someone would say would be that I could unbolt the gear stick from the box I already have in the 110, bolt this to a Discovery LT77 or an R380 gearbox, drop it in and mount the engine further forward.

But I think I will probably just end up putting the 200Tdi in as it is and use whatever I can from the Discovery to plumb it in. And maybe come back to the engine further forward after I have rebuilt the 300Tdi.

Thanks for all your information though. Really appreciated.

[Aragorn]

well if you have a complete 200tdi disco then you can, You'd just need to either get the adaptor piece from ashcrofts:

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=375

Or open the box up and swap out the selector shaft for the defender version.

[Tetsu0san]

Has anyone put a Discovery 200Tdi into a 90/110 chassis and used the Discovery engine and chassis mounts? It seems the the only people I can find who do this also use the Discovery gearbox so the engine is further forward, but I will be using the original gearbox so the engine will be further back. Are there going to be any issues in welding in these mounts?

I have to weld something in as the original mounts have been removed anyway. But if this is a problem area then I will need to try to find some Defender chassis mounts or similar.

[Landowner]

I put a disco 300tdi into 90 defender and used defender gearbox mounts and defender engine mounts dropped onto repositioned 19J chassis mounts welded to suit and off side one modified and strengthened to accomodate 300 oil filter.

The disco gearbox put the 300 further forward in chassis but that was good because the oil cooler pipes fitted straight on rad and all Disco intercooler pipes etc fit.

The exhaust down pipe had to be modified because the 200 engine mounts were directly below the turbo outlet and were in the way.

The reason 200 mounts were used was because I had originally put a 200 disco engine and boxes in but the engine failed and I got a 300 cheap so just swapped it. With the oringinaly swapped 200 sitting further forward it also meant that the 19J downpipe fitted and connected up to the original exhaust as well.

The gearlever comes up at the forward edge of the seat box and is in a nice position, box had to be cut and tunnel modified but worth it in my opinion.

Gearlever position

[Tetsu0san]

Thanks for that, I may well do that at a later date, but for the moment I want to put the Discovery 200Tdi in on the existing gearbox. But as there are no engine mounts I can use I will have to use the Discovery ones. But everyone, including yourself only use the Discovery ones because you are mounting the engine forward due to the Discovery gearbox. I just want to know if it is going to cause me any trouble using Discovery mounts rather than TD/NA or petrol mounts. Whatever I do I will have to weld the mounts in.

[Landowner]

Thanks for that, I may well do that at a later date, but for the moment I want to put the Discovery 200Tdi in on the existing gearbox. But as there are no engine mounts I can use I will have to use the Discovery ones. But everyone, including yourself only use the Discovery ones because you are mounting the engine forward due to the Discovery gearbox. I just want to know if it is going to cause me any trouble using Discovery mounts rather than TD/NA or petrol mounts. Whatever I do I will have to weld the mounts in.

Either mounts will be fine for 200 tdi, Disco ones welded on to chassis will not be a problem

[Tetsu0san]

OK, now I have been reading into this and I have had another change of plan

I am going to replace the gearbox and transfer box with a Discovery one so that the engine sits further forward. This will reduce the replacing/extending all the pipework and getting another downpipe and I think this is the best option for engine position, but I am not totally happy with the Discovery gearstick. At the moment I have an LT77 from a Discovery and having read up on the Ashcroft adapter as detailed by Aragorn I really like the idea of modifying the gearbox so that I use the Defender type selector. However, will this adapter fit on an LT77 gearbox using the LT77 selector from the Defender gearbox? If it does I will be well pleased. If not, then do I need the LT77 quadrant instead?

And, to throw another spanner into the works I may have an R380 from a Discovery available too. This would obviously be the ideal option but will the LT77 selector setup from the Defender gearbox fit to the R380 using the Ashcroft adapter?

[Snagger]

Just a heads-up - you may need an electric fan because the Discovery's viscous fan will be in a different positionthan on your existing engine (or a Defender's 200 Tdi). This certainly was an issue for me when I removed the 12J (which used the same timing case, water pump and fan position as the Defender 200Tdi) from my 109 and fit a Discovery 200. The oil cooler pipes may also have fitting issues due to the different relative positions of rad and engine, but you will probably be able to simply invert them.

[Aragorn]

OK, now I have been reading into this and I have had another change of plan

I am going to replace the gearbox and transfer box with a Discovery one so that the engine sits further forward. This will reduce the replacing/extending all the pipework and getting another downpipe and I think this is the best option for engine position, but I am not totally happy with the Discovery gearstick. At the moment I have an LT77 from a Discovery and having read up on the Ashcroft adapter as detailed by Aragorn I really like the idea of modifying the gearbox so that I use the Defender type selector. However, will this adapter fit on an LT77 gearbox using the LT77 selector from the Defender gearbox? If it does I will be well pleased. If not, then do I need the LT77 quadrant instead?

And, to throw another spanner into the works I may have an R380 from a Discovery available too. This would obviously be the ideal option but will the LT77 selector setup from the Defender gearbox fit to the R380 using the Ashcroft adapter?

Give ashcrofts a ring and see what they recon, they'll know what combinations work together.

[Tetsu0san]

you may need an electric fan because the Discovery's viscous fan will be in a different position than on your existing engine

I don't have a viscous fan as the transit engine sits even further back than the Land Rover engine. There is a poxy little electric fan covering about a quarter of the radiator at the moment, I will be either fitting a double fan or a larger fan (not decided yet).

Give ashcrofts a ring and see what they recon, they'll know what combinations work together.

I will give them a bell and have a little chat. I have spoken with Dave in the past and he was a very nice man.