quick towing question

[Aragorn]

Interesting....

I'd be printing that off and carrying it around with you!

[Aragorn]

Re-reading it a few times,

I think its saying MAM of trailer must be less than unladen weight of tow vehicle, and the ACTUAL weight of the combination must be less than 3500kg?

So you could not for instance tow an empty car transporter with a MAM of 2500kgs behind the 110, because even though its empty and only weighs 400kgs, its MAM is greater than that of the tow vehicles unladen weight?

[mike4444244]

this is what it says for licences issued between 1997 and 2012...

Vehicles up to 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) and up to 8 passenger seats with trailer up to 750kg; trailers of 750kg if combined weight of vehicle and trailer isnt over 3,500kg and the fully-loaded trailer doesnt weigh more than the unladen vehicle

[Cynic-al]

If its over 3500kg and your using it commercially you need a tacho now, no end of transit transporters (3500kg and under) with trailers get done for it when leaving the auction near me. They even try the recovery card but it doesn't wash. I'm not sure when CPC kicks in but I know C & C+E have to do it when driving commercially and its a bib mickey mouse at the moment IMO.

I paid for my B+E by the hour, I had three two hour lessons and had to hire his vehicle for 3 hours for the test at £20ph plus the test fee direct to the dvla. You can use your own vehicle provided you have mirrors for the examiner and a trailer that obscures your rear view but allows vision with the wing mirrors. I did it in a new shape mini with a single axle box trailer I would recommend using an instructor as you have to drive as you did on your car test but to a higher standard so its good to have someone pick out your bad habits.

If you've got a 110 that can tow a 3500kg trailer I would just try to save and do it then you have no worries, you can tow what you like.

[Simon Smith]

Sometime, only sometimes mind you, I'm pleased to be old.

[mike4444244]

it's not so much the money it's the time and faffing, I don't use a trailer very often and if I need something big moving I have my dad and older sister insured so they can move it ?

[Aragorn]

this is what it says for licences issued between 1997 and 2012...

Vehicles up to 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) and up to 8 passenger seats with trailer up to 750kg; trailers of 750kg if combined weight of vehicle and trailer isnt over 3,500kg and the fully-loaded trailer doesnt weigh more than the unladen vehicle

Yeh, the point there being that "fully loaded trailer" means MAM, and not "the amount of weight i happen to have put on it today"

So MAM still has to be below unladen weight, but the 3500kg combination is actual weight.

[UdderlyOffroad]

Yeh, the point there being that "fully loaded trailer" means MAM, and not "the amount of weight i happen to have put on it today"

So MAM still has to be below unladen weight, but the 3500kg combination is actual weight.

No, it means weight. As per the email confirmation from the DVLA. Hence why mike4444244 asked them.

[Aragorn]

No, it means weight. As per the email confirmation from the DVLA. Hence why mike4444244 asked them.

Mike asked them about the 3500kg limit, and their email only mentions the 3500kg limit.

The email does not mention, nor confirm anything about the trailers MAM being over the unladen weight of the tow vehicle, so i cannot see why you would think what they've said about the 3500kg limit changes that.

Read Bowies quote on post 3, its quite obviously talking about the MAM when it says it cant be over the unladen weight.

[mike4444244]

no I specifically asked them about MAM and they said as above it is the weight of the combination not the MAM of the combination, the MAM rule applies only if the trailer is MAM less than 750kg in which case it's that + 3500kg MAM to give 4250kg MAM.

This was the area of confusion hence why I asked them specifically this question and got the above reply, unfortunately I'm not able to copy my original email but I specifically told them the date I passed my test, my driving licence number, the unladen weight and MAM of a 110 csw, the unladen weight (guessed 350kg) of a sankey and the MAM of 1100kg for the sankey and they replied as above you can tow it but only to a combination of 3500kg

I am lucky in that I doubt I will ever need to carry more than a ton of stuff with me but obviously the 3500kg weight restriction would be very limiting to some, ie if you wanted to tow a car somewhere for example

It could all be made much simpler!

[UdderlyOffroad]

So, Kerb weight of a 110 is 2123kg (for a modern 110 CSW), per http://www.carpages.co.uk/guide/land-rover/land-rover-defender-110-station-wagon.asp

Good luck finding a MAM on the ID plate of a Sankey, but lets assume the 375kg kerb weight is accurate.

375+750 = 1125 kg Sankey 'MAM'

2123 > 1125 => Ok to Tow on B licence 1997-2013, and 2013+

2123 + 1125 = 3248 kg. 3248 < 3500 kg => Ok to Tow on B licence 1997-2013, and 2013+

So even a fully loaded Sankey can be towed behind a 110. I will check my figures at home when I can see the ID plate of my older 110 and the Sankey.

The confusion occurs for 2 reasons:

1. The payload of the sankey is 750 kg - this is not its MAM
2. It's actually quite easy to overload a Sankey. And remember that kerb weight of the 110 doesn't include whatever you put in a the tow vehicle.

For 1997 - 2013 licences only:

3500-2123 = 1377 kg MAM of any trailer you can tow (again check this against the kerb weight written in your v5).

For 2013+ licences

Whatever you like, upto 3500 kg train weight ("trailers weighing more than 750kg, where the combined weight of the towing vehicle and the trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg")

3500 - 2123 =

So for 2013+ licences they've simplified it, but tragically for the 1997-2013 licencees, not applied it retrospectively. Either way(having checked your V5), tow your sankey behind your truck with impunity. Just don't overload it!

[Aragorn]

The way its written in the official paperwork suggests there are two criteria you need to meet:

1: Trailers MAM < unladen

2: Total weight of vehicle and trailer < 3500kg.

Initially, i had thought that 2 meant the MAM of both, but having re-read it, and looked at your DVLA email, i can see and accept that its simply the actual weight of the setup. However that doesnt remove criteria 1...

I dont see that the DVLA email has said that criteria 1 has gone away, simply that your proposed rig meets both so that its fine to tow.

With my interpretation, you CAN still tow the sankey, as its MAM is below the unladen weight of a 110.

You could not however tow a larger trailer such as a car transporter or horsebox, even unloaded.

I think i'll email them this query, specifically regarding a larger trailer, and see how they respond!

[Aragorn]

For 1997 - 2013 licences only:

3500-2123 = 1377 kg MAM of any trailer you can tow (again check this against the kerb weight written in your v5).

For 2013+ licences

Whatever you like, upto 3500 kg train weight ("trailers weighing more than 750kg, where the combined weight of the towing vehicle and the trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg")

3500 - 2123 =

For 1997-2013, i'd say you can use a trailer with a MAM of upto 2123kg, but cant load it up to any more than 1377kg.

So a trailer plated at 2000kg, with an unladen weight of 400kg could be legally attached and towed empty, and so long as you didnt add any more than ~900kgs of cargo (to either the trailer or landy)

[UdderlyOffroad]

You could not however tow a larger trailer such as a car transporter or horsebox, even unloaded.

I think i'll email them this query, specifically regarding a larger trailer, and see how they respond!

You could, IF you had a post Jan 2013 licence

Licences issued from 19 January 2013

From 19 January 2013, drivers passing a category B (car and small vehicle) test can tow:

• small trailers weighing no more than 750kg
• trailers weighing more than 750kg, where the combined weight of the towing vehicle and the trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg

But not a 1997 - 2013 licence. This is the madness of it, they have made a nice simple rule, but not applied it retrospectively.

I suspect the reason they'vechanged it this way is that it is easier to enforce. If you get pulled over at a weighbridge, as long as you're < 3500 kg, on your way son. If you're over....time to break out the fixed penalty notice...saves arguing with traffic officers about the what constitutes MAM and Weight.

[Aragorn]

agreed.

See initially i had thaught that the crazy rules were actually to make enforcement easier. MAM is printed in nice big letters on the trailer and vehicle. Its very easy to look at both, and state "its over 3500kg and thus illegal", but it seems not, as you infact need both a weighbridge, and knowledge of the unladen weight of the tow vehicle, which typically isnt printed anywhere obvious.