propshafts

[jjojjas]

this is probably the start of a long string of bizzar questions from me, but I'm trying to sort out the infamous back lash on my 110 and its not proving easy, unless I spend a mint.....

here we go:

the box & transfer are original, 1993 LT77 on a 200tdi 110

All hub drive flanges are new.

Half shafts all good

I can't get any free movement from a UJ with a big screw driver

points of concern:

back lash thud is massive. (I'm about to look at the A frame joint today, whats the best way to check it?)

hand brake drum can be pushed side to side (?rear transferre output bearing?)

very slight lateral play on the rear prop but its hard to see where its from.

obvious lateral play on the front output of the transferr box 2-3mm

front prop inner shaft seems to "wiggle" inside the outer sleeve

that worn bearing noise at 55mph, sounds near the front end (centrally, not a wheel, new wheel bearings all round)

So.

1. I'm off to remove the front prop, drive up & down the road to see if the whirring has gone.

2. try to wedge something in the A frame to see if that moves

3. trying not to think about the gearbox just yet...

any further ideas here chaps???? have I missed the obvious?

Jas

[Diff]

this is probably the start of a long string of bizzar questions from me, but I'm trying to sort out the infamous back lash on my 110 and its not proving easy, unless I spend a mint.....

here we go:

the box & transfer are original, 1993 LT77 on a 200tdi 110

All hub drive flanges are new.

Half shafts all good

I can't get any free movement from a UJ with a big screw driver

points of concern:

back lash thud is massive. (I'm about to look at the A frame joint today, whats the best way to check it?)

hand brake drum can be pushed side to side (?rear transferre output bearing?)

very slight lateral play on the rear prop but its hard to see where its from.

obvious lateral play on the front output of the transferr box 2-3mm

front prop inner shaft seems to "wiggle" inside the outer sleeve

that worn bearing noise at 55mph, sounds near the front end (centrally, not a wheel, new wheel bearings all round)

So.

1. I'm off to remove the front prop, drive up & down the road to see if the whirring has gone.

2. try to wedge something in the A frame to see if that moves

3. trying not to think about the gearbox just yet...

any further ideas here chaps???? have I missed the obvious?

Jas

At that mileage, there will be a lot of accumulated wear, which adds up to quite a lot of backlash.

Propshaft splines have a rilsan coating which wears out and will result in some backlash. Although halfshalfts and flange splines may be good, there will be wear on the diff side gear splines, as well as backlash within the diff spider gears, and between the crownwheel and pinion.

You may have worn suspension bushes/loose bolts anywhere front or rear which can cause big clunks.

The A frame joint can be checked by applying the hand brake in transfer neutral on a flat surface. Get someone to push the Landrover back and forward. This will enable you to check where there is any play in the drive train or suspension bushes at the back end.

With regard to the gearbox, the centre diff can count for a lot of play on older vehicles. If you can move your handbrake drum up or down etc, you have play in the bearings, which could account for clunking too, and is a good indication of wear.

The most expensive area of potential wear is the gearbox mainshaft/transfer input gear splines. There could be massive spline wear at 170,000 miles which could account for a huge amount of backlash.

Unfortunately this would mean a minimum of a main gearbox rebuild with a new mainshaft, and a new transfer input gear and possibly a transfer box rebuild if you have a lot of wear as suggested above.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Diff

[Mark90]

the box & transfer are original, 1993 LT77 on a 200tdi 110

3. trying not to think about the gearbox just yet...

any further ideas here chaps???? have I missed the obvious?

Gearbox output shaft / transferbox input gear wear is a likely candidate, unfortunately.

The the clunk a sort of loud metalic clack?

[freeagent]

the rear prop on my old 110 wore out, the sliding joint was knackered (and i did grease it regularly) when i removed it, it just fell apart....

bought a new one from the propshaft clinic... which was a work of art, puts the genuine parts one to shame...

my 110 was pushing 200,000 miles at this point....

[Les Henson]

I tend to agree with Mr90 ^^^^

You can inspect the gear for wear without too much trouble. Mind you - taking the end cap off the transfer case, and then the bearing carrier can be quite entertaining.

How to get at it is within this thread:-

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=6840

The gearbox output shaft splines in this picture are badly worn, as well as the inside of the gear where it locates. The syptoms were a heavy clunk when letting out the clutch - especially when pulling away.

Hope this isnt your problem, but mileage is right. Replacement gearbox, even if you fit a second hand one, is quite a bit of work as you'll see by the thread.

David Ashcroft posts on here, see what he has to say perhaps?

Les.

[freeagent]

i'm sure Les is right, you're backlash is coming from your output shaft/ input gear....

but propshafts can, and do, wear out......

[jjojjas]

A frame joint doesn't move at all, so not that.

Polybush set on order as bushes are old and obviously visibly worn

Haven't removed the prop yet.....kids going mad around the house...

turned the stereo off this morning on the way to asda. Under load (acceleration) the gear box is grating/whiring....

Thanks all for the thoughts so far, I guess your all pointing towards transmission replacement.....

So I'll take of the end cover on transferre box and remove 2x m8 screws. pull the carrier out and I should be able to see how bad the wear is on the shaft?

I'll do that now.

The 110's a long term vehicle, no inclination to replace it so I'll fix it reguardless as I have already spent some time & money on it.

[jjojjas]

well then, this has surprised me!

removed inspection cover, no m8 screws in sight, so levered the bearing retainer off. Inside I see this:

and this:

Now I know not a lot about gear n' things...always avoided them. But these look fine! The shaft is clean with square edges, no sign of wear and the gear is just as good. Bearings look ok also. So have i got a recon box already???? could this back lash be comming from the transfer box only?

I removed the rear prop and checked the play between the break drum and the gears inside the transfer box (stuck my hand in the hole), the slack seems very obvious to me. Again, this would lead to the transfer box ..... Could the transfer box be the "greating gears" noise I always assumed was the gear box?

I then drove it with the rear prop off, although back lash was still there (but less so) it was definately better, no "THUD" noise. I hear Sailsbury diffs work with a lot of play, would this be the cause? Heres two pictures of the flange with the prop off. the first ones the slack taken op to one side then the second one is the slack taken up to the other side. Is this a large amount of play? (It seems it when doing it)

Again any thoughts would be well appreciated, I don't fancy coughing out £1000 for recon box/transfer etc to find I still have problems...

thanks

Jas

[Diff]

Yes, you have a recon main box there with the newer crossdrilled transfer input gear. Good news!

The amount of play your pictures of the drive flanges indicate, does not seem unusual, though if you have side to side movement at the brake drum, you definately have sloppy bearings which may be an indication of further wear in the central diff area.

To drive without the rear prop, you would have engaged the central diff lock. Doing this will take out some of the slop/backlash in the centre diff.

Salisburies are notorious for having a fair bit of play in them, but that doesn't mean they are knackered.

You may have a typical combination of a little bit of backlash in lots of places adding up to a lot overall, or ther may be excessive backlash in the centre diff. Since the 'shunt' was less with the rear prop removed, take the front prop off and drive on the back prop, and see if the shunt comes back. If it does, then you know it is rear end related.

Regards,

Diff

[Mark90]

Glad I was wrong on the gearbox splines. Does look like you've had a recon box in there, which is nice

[Les Henson]

I agree, that's £400-odd quid you won't be spending on a gearbox. B)

Les.

[jjojjas]

thanks everyone.

Assistance really appreciated.

Tomorrow (work today) I'm gonna take of the front prop as Diff suggested and see if the shunt is back. Then I'm gonna re check the rear half shaft splines.

Its getting polybushed soon, so with that and possible a recon transfer box/possibly shafts I'm hoping its gonna be a bit better.

chuffed there as recon box already in. You'd think they would have mentioned it to me when I bought it. Although it had 140,000 mile to get one before I had it so it could easily have been done with the second owner (I'm 4th).

cheers all. If theres anything interesting I'll post the result.

Jas

[jjojjas]

Update on my "knock" for those who are interested.

Changed front prop for new one and changed rear half shafts and I'd say 75% of the "thud" has gone now! Unbelievable that such little wear on the rear shafts could create a large noise and thud!

Transfer box still whirrs under load (partucuarly on a corner), and any slack is clearly in the transfer box (you can pinpoint it under the tunnel now). Rear diff still slack, but only if you actually try to make it thump by tapping on & off the throttle. Much happier all round!

Many thanks for the replies, and I'll probably change the transfer box at a later date, see how it handles the next few months first.

Cheers

Jas