ls3 discovery fuel lift pump

[muddy4x4xfar]

Hi all. small problem. i have a Discovery 1 which used to be a 200tdi, is now a Ls3 V8 with roughly 550bhp when it will be running.

i did ask a few months ago about a fuel pump and got recommended a external electric fuel pump but i never thought to ask what lift pump should i put in the tank to allow the pump the suck up and out, (dummy!!!!!)

i would imagine the 200tdi pipes out of the lift pump would be too small ? am i correct? Any recommendations if so.

cheers

chris

[robertspark]

I don't think you will get an in tank pump to flow enough fuel at the right pressure.

The Bosch 044 seems to be the one thats always recommended.

You could use a low pressure pump flowing high volume into a fuel swirl pot, and then feed out of there via a higher pressure high flow pump (which is my plan).

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1163290

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/61944-Bosch-044-Universal-Inline-Fuel-Pump-Camaro-LS1-LS2-LS3-LS6-LSX-/261656533844

Bit of waffle on here:

http://www.racecomponentsinc.com/Products-Bosch_044_fuel_Pump.html

How far is your build?

Rob

[Dave W]

As above really, unless you are using a swirl pot you don't need a lift pump. The Bosch 044 is a good pump (I use one of those on mine at the moment) but it's bloody noisy compared to the Sytec equivalents. I originally fitted one to my TD5 and swapped it for a Sytec one as it was drowning out the sound of the diesel engine !

My LS engine was "turn key" so came with a pump but last year I replaced it with an 044 after noticing a lack of fuel pressure. At the same time I changed it over to use a more obtainable pre and post filter.

I sourced mine from http://www.fuelpumpsonline.co.uk as they can supply your choice of connectors, filters and pump mounts etc... Very helpful on the phone when I had some queries about the various connector sizes. You'll also need a fuel pressure regulator, I have an adjustable one next to the pump on mine and don't use a vacuum control because I find it's easier to get the Megasquirt tuned in with a fixed fuel pressure.

[robertspark]

Dave, is your LS megasquirted?

With the LS ECU it does not use a vacuum regulator, just a fixed pressure. I have an hptuners pro kit plus dual wbo2 ... If I ever finish it in this or the next life.

Don't understand why GM never used wbo2

Rob

[Dave W]

Dave, is your LS megasquirted?

With the LS ECU it does not use a vacuum regulator, just a fixed pressure. I have an hptuners pro kit plus dual wbo2 ... If I ever finish it in this or the next life.

Don't understand why GM never used wbo2

Rob

Yes, mine was the first to be Megasquirted and documented using the OEM sensors, the MS1-Extra code had to be modified to cope with the strange cam sensor.

WB02 is only really of use when you're first setting up an engine, after that they become just an expensive toy IMV. I've set up a number of engines using an aftermarket WB02 and not really had much better results than when I've set it up using NB. As a manufacturer WB is probably seen in the same way, once the engine mapping is complete a NB is more reliable and much cheaper. Off road a WB sensor will last until the first time you dunk it in water.

It's an option on most variable regulators to use vacuum, probably more a throwback to the early EFi systems, I never use the vacuum input, didn't know if the standard LS setup used it or not

The LS engines are an excellent candidate for MS, all the sensors are the same ones the MS comes pre-set with, the ignition coils are triggered with a 5v signal so can be driven direct and the crank/cam sensors are now supported as an option in the MS setup and it already has a suitable throttle pot. The only relatively difficult bit is the IAC stepper motor but these days I use an Arduino module to control the stepper and a single PIC to convert WPM output from the MS into an absolute position for the stepper.

I had no choice but to use MS for mine as, at the time, LS engines were difficult to get shipped top the UK and the only supplier who offered the engine I wanted would only ship it without an ECU. We did two Defender installs in 2007 and both of them used MS although with the easy availability of dedicated LS ECUs now the second Defender is now using an OEM one.

There's a build thread covering my conversion here if it's of any interest...

http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=194

[robertspark]

With the wideband, its the ability to tune at 12.9:1 instead of just 14.7:1 with a nbo2 for max power although the wb aftermarket modules give you the ability to shift the nb output to whatever you want.

My sensors are 1/3rd up the block so hopefully won't be getting dunked too often + top side of the exhaust, I ran a wbo2 on on the 3.5 with twin SU's + LPG I was surprised how well the needles for the SU's were selected (by LR as std needles), and the was able to get the LPG tuned very well, had to swap manifolds with the sensor as it was not in a common location but in the tubular manifold section, always interesting after a long hot run when getting a lean backfire and watching the guage bounce up to 23 / 24:1 when taking your foot off the happy pedal at a roundabout for example (damn I've got to do some more tonight!)

I guess if you've not got the stock LS ECU (or the GMPP one) then the MS is a more cost effective option considering the add on cost of HPTuners or EFILive etc as well, its the coil/plug which is interesting and sequential injection offered by the GM ecu which also is of interest.

With the LS7 in the vette I expected them to do something interesting at wide open throttle to adjust the target lambda to 12.9 or there abouts (think the rover runs better at about 13.5 [i'd need to check a book to confirm]), which isf lost with the nb sensors but I guess they were also having to conform with the California emissions requirements maybe was an issue .... but that should not have stopped them with the crate engines and GMPP offering as some of them are listed as off-road only I think if they are not installed with cats (in the US / vehicle age dependant here I think).

Rob

[muddy4x4xfar]

As above really, unless you are using a swirl pot you don't need a lift pump. The Bosch 044 is a good pump (I use one of those on mine at the moment) but it's bloody noisy compared to the Sytec equivalents. I originally fitted one to my TD5 and swapped it for a Sytec one as it was drowning out the sound of the diesel engine !

My LS engine was "turn key" so came with a pump but last year I replaced it with an 044 after noticing a lack of fuel pressure. At the same time I changed it over to use a more obtainable pre and post filter.

I sourced mine from http://www.fuelpumpsonline.co.uk as they can supply your choice of connectors, filters and pump mounts etc... Very helpful on the phone when I had some queries about the various connector sizes. You'll also need a fuel pressure regulator, I have an adjustable one next to the pump on mine and don't use a vacuum control because I find it's easier to get the Megasquirt tuned in with a fixed fuel pressure.

thats great, what part should i fit to the tank part though? the sender part I'm talking about? as i imagine the 200tdi one won't be any good considering the size of the pipes. if that makes sense.

[muddy4x4xfar]

I don't think you will get an in tank pump to flow enough fuel at the right pressure.

The Bosch 044 seems to be the one thats always recommended.

You could use a low pressure pump flowing high volume into a fuel swirl pot, and then feed out of there via a higher pressure high flow pump (which is my plan).

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1163290

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/61944-Bosch-044-Universal-Inline-Fuel-Pump-Camaro-LS1-LS2-LS3-LS6-LSX-/261656533844

Bit of waffle on here:

http://www.racecomponentsinc.com/Products-Bosch_044_fuel_Pump.html

How far is your build?

Rob

brill ill check these out, builds coming along well, iv gone over and above what the vehicle is worth a lot are telling me but I'm not bothered, its something iv wanted for a long time, its just figuring everything out.

what sort of sender would you suggest putting in the tank? for the pipes to attach to from the pump part?

[Dave W]

thats great, what part should i fit to the tank part though? the sender part I'm talking about? as i imagine the 200tdi one won't be any good considering the size of the pipes. if that makes sense.

Not sure about the 200TDi, is it a plastic tank ?

You don't need huge i/d pipes so the existing sender pipes are likely to be about right. I can't remember the exact size of mine but from memory I think they're 8mm i/d or thereabouts. On the 300TDi Discovery with a plastic tank the original fuel pick up and return is perfect, on the donor vehicle I used the original fuel pipes were plastic and had threaded compression joints to join them to the sender. I cut away the plastic pipe and used hose clips to secure the new pipe to the brass stems. It may seem like you need bigger pipes to supply the fuel but if you're using more fuel than an 8mm pipe can deliver you have some serious fuel consumption issues !

On my original setup the pre-filter and the fuel pump inlet were 22mm or something similar which was a real PITA to deal with. The rest of the system was all 7 or 8mm i/d though. When I re-designed it I got an 044 with an 8mm inlet and used off the shelf disposable 8mm EFi filters before and after the pump.

[missingsid]

Can't help with any of this, just drool, what is the power/torque of the LS verses the AJV8 in my D3?

GM engine in a Ford!!

Do you have a build website? Not that I want to change my engine but interested in the mechanics of the mod.

When I have eard of AJV8 failures in a D3 (not often) this has not come up.

Marc

[muddy4x4xfar]

Not sure about the 200TDi, is it a plastic tank ?

You don't need huge i/d pipes so the existing sender pipes are likely to be about right. I can't remember the exact size of mine but from memory I think they're 8mm i/d or thereabouts. On the 300TDi Discovery with a plastic tank the original fuel pick up and return is perfect, on the donor vehicle I used the original fuel pipes were plastic and had threaded compression joints to join them to the sender. I cut away the plastic pipe and used hose clips to secure the new pipe to the brass stems. It may seem like you need bigger pipes to supply the fuel but if you're using more fuel than an 8mm pipe can deliver you have some serious fuel consumption issues !

On my original setup the pre-filter and the fuel pump inlet were 22mm or something similar which was a real PITA to deal with. The rest of the system was all 7 or 8mm i/d though. When I re-designed it I got an 044 with an 8mm inlet and used off the shelf disposable 8mm EFi filters before and after the pump.

hi yes its a plastic fuel tank. this is the bit thats getting me, as to whether the i/d will be big enough to suit what the ls3 needs. im guessing with you saying the 300tdi fuel pick up was perfect, im guessing the 300tdi pick up would fit into a 200tdi tank is that correct with them been nearly the same vehicle? i have seen that some are putting in ls engines into td5 vehicles, with what looks like the td5 sender unit in the tank, would a td5 fuel tank fit in place of a discovery 200 one maybe?.

apologies for going on abit.

thanks for your help so far

[muddy4x4xfar]

Can't help with any of this, just drool, what is the power/torque of the LS verses the AJV8 in my D3?

GM engine in a Ford!!

Do you have a build website? Not that I want to change my engine but interested in the mechanics of the mod.

When I have eard of AJV8 failures in a D3 (not often) this has not come up.

Marc

iv no idea what the ajv8 power rating is, but with the additional bits on the engine its roughly (not been tested yet) going to be putting out 525-550hp. not sure what the torque will be as im getting mixed answers on that one but roughly 489lbs of torque if not a little more. but wont know till its all been tested. as im doing this project on my own may take a little while before that happens.

[Dave W]

hi yes its a plastic fuel tank. this is the bit thats getting me, as to whether the i/d will be big enough to suit what the ls3 needs. im guessing with you saying the 300tdi fuel pick up was perfect, im guessing the 300tdi pick up would fit into a 200tdi tank is that correct with them been nearly the same vehicle? i have seen that some are putting in ls engines into td5 vehicles, with what looks like the td5 sender unit in the tank, would a td5 fuel tank fit in place of a discovery 200 one maybe?.

apologies for going on abit.

thanks for your help so far

I have no idea if there's any difference between the 300 and 200 TDi sender units, quite possible not ! The different sender units on the plastic tanks are pretty much interchangeable barring a few different lengths due to tank depth differences. The 300TDi sender unit is ideal simply because it has two pipes, the pickup pipe has a sprung extension on the bottom that ensures it sits on the bottom of the tank and it has a shorter return pipe. I would take the sender unit you have out and have a look at it, I'm not all that familiar with the old school diesels but I always assumed the 200TDi and 300TDi would have the same sender unit, the one I used happened to come out of a 300TDi Discovery.

No need to change the tank, the plastic tanks all have the same sender fitting so you can use pretty much any sender in any tank. You wouldn't want to use a TD5 sender though, they're essentially a swirl pot design that sits in the tank with a low and high pressure pump in the same unit.

[muddy4x4xfar]

I have no idea if there's any difference between the 300 and 200 TDi sender units, quite possible not ! The different sender units on the plastic tanks are pretty much interchangeable barring a few different lengths due to tank depth differences. The 300TDi sender unit is ideal simply because it has two pipes, the pickup pipe has a sprung extension on the bottom that ensures it sits on the bottom of the tank and it has a shorter return pipe. I would take the sender unit you have out and have a look at it, I'm not all that familiar with the old school diesels but I always assumed the 200TDi and 300TDi would have the same sender unit, the one I used happened to come out of a 300TDi Discovery.

No need to change the tank, the plastic tanks all have the same sender fitting so you can use pretty much any sender in any tank. You wouldn't want to use a TD5 sender though, they're essentially a swirl pot design that sits in the tank with a low and high pressure pump in the same unit.

Thats brill, ill look into this then. Many thanks for all your help Dave.