Phill S
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Posts posted by Phill S
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Hi Paul - pretty sure I still have all those bits from the original donor Disco somewhere, but thanks for the offer. Reality suggests that (assuming I can get this thing through MoT soon....) I'll run it without cowling through the winter, and then work out my electric fan installation for next time the bodywork is all coming apart again...
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On 10/22/2023 at 12:13 PM, Linc 110 said:
Hi, does anyone have the specs for the alignment of the R380
Sorry - late to the party. My own foray into mounting brackets is here, which may be of some use...
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Finally back on project! A massive amount of time spent reconfiguring a Disco 1 wiring loom for my '87 110, life events, and a requirement to go on holiday. Sadly, the 110 not yet ready for action, so 6 weeks in the old L200.
Along the way I bought a little something in Turin:
"What's in the box Phill?" I hear you cry.
A new old stock brass NTC6168 that's what...
Weighs a ton compared with the Britpart plastic one.
So it looks the part, but anybody able to shed any light on who the manufacturer might be? Came in a plain brown box. The only identification is a fairly primitive stamping on the top surface:
Anybody able to shed any light? I assume it was manufactured in June 2007?
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Hi Gabz - don't know if any interest, but I recently removed the 2.5 NA from my 1987 truck, I'm going V8. Ex-Singapore army. Only 3,500ish miles, it's not a big country. Fully fitted with all the pulleys, belts, pump and bracket, overhauled injectors, all engine oil seals replaced etc etc. Mounting points for aircon pump. Ideal for spare parts or transplant. PM me if any interest, I have loads of pics. You would also need the pipes and reservoir, I no longer have those, and the steering box, although there seem to be a fair few second hand ones around.
Best pic I can find on a quick look below....
Phill
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Well the last few weeks have seen me wrestling with the re-wiring. Original vehicle was 24v, but I wanted to go 12v. Fitting the wiring loom from the donor Disco 1 seemed like a good idea, and I want the aircon and cruise control, and anti-theft, and leccie doros and a decent fuse system, and and and.... You get to a certain point where there's no going back because of all the work you put into it already.....
Would I do the Disco wiring again? Yes, but in a fraction of the time having worked out how to arrange it.
Back to the wiring diagrams...
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Erm - how are you going to get into the battery box? I'm hoping you have a solution I can use!
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Ok - thanks
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Ok - interesting. Any idea which of their models you used?
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9 hours ago, Phill S said:
Time to get the clutch working...
And of course I've forgotten to identify that this is a 3.9 engine with an R380 gearbox. You were just supposed to know that....
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Time to get the clutch working...
I worked out last year (with help from the forum!) that the release mechanism I needed is/was like the Disco 2:
On 7/23/2022 at 6:42 PM, Phill S said:After a lot of chasing around I found this in the discovery 2 area:
That's from here:
For reference that can all be found here:
https://forums.lr4x4.com/topic/112315-v8-clutch-release-conundrum/#comment-1041408
Now I used the push rod, item 10 in the above diagram, FTC5199. Please don't tell me I got that wrong:
Am I right in thinking then, that I would need the slave cylinder for the 1987 spec 3.5 V8 - item 16 UKC8677L - now superseded by FTC5071?:
The only real difference from the original '87 V8 is the longer push rod to replace item 12?
Plus a revision to the slave cylinder end hydraulics to take me from 2.5NA diesel to V8 as in:
i.e. replacing the hose 16, then 17 with 18, and 21 with 22?
Also, where does bolt 23 attach?
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Thank you! That's a very helpful and comprehensive treatment. Gives me the eebie jeebies thinking about getting up close and personal with the fan when I need to get the timing properly set up.
Having said that I'm going to fit the viscous fan, mostly because I'm in a hurry to get the machine MoT'd and time is going by. Aiming to take it to southern Italy this autumn via Corsica and Sardinia as a first foray, lots to do by way of internal fit, and there'll be a whole lot of worms that coming wriggling out once I start driving it after this engine fit. Want to get some UK miles on the clock this summer to build confidence.
The front body will all be coming off again this winter for re-painting and at that point I'll be going electric fans.
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Ok - so I learn that there are different ways of achieving a water cooled engine:
And I'm very interested in the two-stage electric fan concept:
https://fuddymuckers.co.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=alfie:electric_fans
But just before I start to think more deeply about electric fans, I have this great big propeller option:
So what are the pro's and cons of those?
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Yeah - the pipework can get a little confusing though.
If you whip the rocker covers off and spin the oil pump up (don't lean too heavy on it) you'll know the job's done when the oil comes dripping out of the rocker shafts. A dollop of assembly lube on the dizzy gear as it goes in can be a good idea too, the gear on the end of the camshaft takes quite a lot of load and isn't all that well lubricated, especially on an engine that's been standing for a time.
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A few pics of my 3.9 installation that might help you along the way:
The vacuum port to the left fed the brake servo on the original Disco 1 fit, the middle one the evap canister, and the third one blanked off. I have them all terminated at the moment following the initial engine run up. You can see that the heater pipes are a different config to yours - mine is a '97 serpentine engine. Also you'll see the fuel pipes are a little different.
A general view of the vacuum pipework on the engine LHS - looks like yours is the same:
The intake hot spot is fed from this pipe - front LHS of the inlet manifold:
I have that blanked off as I'm not using the hotspot, so it'll probly stay as it is....
The fuel lines seen from the rear RHS - yours will be different, but maybe helpful to see the general layout:
Notice the hose under the stepper motor, which connects vacuum to the fuel pressure regulator like so:
A few days more before stuff starts to get buried behind all the other gubbins, so holler if there's anything more that might be useful.
You have the earlier oil pump driven from the distributor, so if not done already, and maybe you know already, there's a tool you can buy to drive the oil pump using an electric drill to circulate fresh oil around the engine. Well worth doing IMHO. Also helps to align the pump drive when you're trying to get the distributor in 😉
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7 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:
unlike the plastic ones that get brittle and love to split
Bummer - original brass it is then. Thanks to all for all the help and advice on this one. I'm away for a time now, parts are on order so I can hopefully get rolling when I get back
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Great - and thanks for the tips. Don't think I'm going to use the intake heating thing then. I'll put it on the under review list.
Planning to use the original brass expansion tank, assuming it's big enough? The Disco 1 one is massive (and plastic) and I'm beginning to get a bit picky about space in the engine bay...
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Happy days indeed. How did we ever survive before health and safety were invented.
Possibly my last question on the wet bits before I go into deep thought mode on heater valves, fans, and general plumbing arrangements. Those two pipes at the air intake:
I understand that the inlet manifold needs an air bleed, they took away the one on the carb apex. The workshop manual is vague and just really says they're there and they're hot. What's their purpose? Anti-icing in cold conditions?
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16 hours ago, smallfry said:
Your credentials are impeccable
Mr BondPhillAaw gedoutahere. Was just wanting to say I was taking an engineering design approach to this and not just being a dog with a bone. However:
16 hours ago, smallfry said:You can put the blower on and have all the windows open if necessary. A bit uncomfortable in the height of summer or the Sahara, but sometimes needs must, and all that.
Yeah - I've had to do that before now. Old banger with fixed mechanical fan, summer, A30, holiday traffic jam. Need I say more...
20 hours ago, TSD said:Shutting off the heater core is just one more experiment
Cool 😉
21 hours ago, Bowie69 said:They have, consensus is they are not up to the job
Getting that message fast. But it's all been done before and I will certainly be going through:
20 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:If you want a contrast to my ambulance's cooling system, my 109 (also 4.6, also written up in the members vehicles section)
And thanks for the pointer to the muddystuff, I will be going through all of that...
As a minor digression:
20 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:A long time ago I looked at the DC water pumps but was put off by their short quoted lifespan and the fact it's another thing to plumb & wire & control
I use a Davies Craig pump on the ex-army RV8 I showed earlier because the car it went into had a lot of space issues under the bonnet. Works fine, but the pump I used in my 3.9 engine run up was one that I had decided had done enough time and put back on the shelf as an emergency spare. I wouldn't use one on the 110 because it would seem to me to over-complicate what I need, but for anyone thinking about it, they need to live in the bottom hose area and there's a big old lump of metal in the way called the steering box. That would make the plumbing very messy. And I certainly wouldn't want to hang one on a plastic radiator.
16 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:I think the heater circuit in total is likely a lot more restrictive than the main radiator circuit.
I think you're right. Don't tell anybody I did this, but if you blow through the heater matrix and then blow through the radiator you can get confirmation of that. Just for the record that was the Disco 1 heater. So it looks like if you're content to permanently plumb the heater to receive hot coolant all the time it's not that big of a deal, but if you want to use the H-type valve to return the coolant direct to the pump inlet, you might be loosing cooling effect from the radiator?
Hoping to be on the road in about a month, that will be without a heater box and just connecting the in/out pipes together, so I'm sort of drifting towards taking an experimental look at including an electric valve in the bypass circuit in the way I've been wittering about. Unless anybody can tell me it's a bad idea?
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Ok - anybody reading this thread might be a little confused at this point, but I realised I'd taken a measurement in the wrong place, Many a long year since all those lectures on flow through pipes that I never used in practice, but it's all in there somewhere. So here's the rehashed version with Q&A at the end for those that got there before the big edit yesterday:
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Now, you might think I'm a bit OCD when it comes to concerns about overheating, but... Now retired I spent my working life in R&D aircraft flight control systems design and flight test. Not to trivialise it, but get things wrong and bad stuff happens - witness the Boeing 747 Max angle of attack debacle as just one unfortunate example. I'm afraid the ingrained habits of a working life don't go away when I turn my attention to the RV8. The cooling system being a simple closed-loop control system means I'm going to want to take a good look at that, fully understand how it works, what are the worst possible failure cases, where the accountants came in and said "make it cheaper", and whether there might be any scope for improvement with a little guile and a little money. And then there's the combined knowledge and experience of you guys - there's no substitute for that.
Soooo.....
My next steps in thinking about the cooling system. Giving it a jolly good looking at yesterday and with June and El Niño just around the corner I'm going to shelve the heater fit until the autumn and simply send the heater feed straight back to the pump inlet - it's basically what happens anyway, just via the heater - at least as far as it was on my donor Disco as it came out of the factory. Here's a thought to be going on with though. The Disco is a big ole internal volume and will need a fair amount of oomph to heat that volume. On a hot summers day wherever you are on the planet, that hot coolant is just being routed through the heater matrix unused, and directly back to the pump inlet. That's actually quite a bit of hot coolant just going round in circles...
Now. I'll almost certainly be using the electric fans from the donor Disco:
Assuming they'll fit in the bodywork. If not, I know Mr Fridge has a solution. I'll have a play with the viscous fan as well for good measure. I'll need a temperature switch - standard Disco 1 one is 100⁰C. Might want to go lower. Then a thought occurred - bear with...
If we use the thermostat housing outlet as the datum, this is 30mm diameter which gives an area of 707mm2 . The heater pipes measure up at 16.5mm bore diameter or 214mm2 area. You can see where this is going. Somebody will have done this before.
If we assume flow losses through the heater circuit and radiator circuit are reasonably small, as a rough estimate, at the point where the electric fans switch on I'm still dumping around 20% of the hot coolant straight out of the intake manifold back to the pump inlet, because as designed the bypass circuit is always active. And I'm only putting 80% through the radiator. You may tell me I'm worrying unnecessarily, but I think I want that 20% going through my nice fat radiator under this condition. Being at the point where the fans have triggered, the thermostat will be (should be) open by a goodly amount. So all I need is a valve that will close the bypass circuit when the fans are running. I should perhaps say running from the temperature switch, not just because the air conditioning is on. That could be messy.
I have a cheapo valve left over from another project like this:
This one is normally closed but they also come normally open, which would obviously be what we need here. Thinking about getting a cheapo one of that sort and seeing how it works out...
Whaddayareckon?
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Having thought about it some more I will probably hold off doing this until winter time when I do the heating/cooling, and that will give me direct experience of how the standard system works as a baseline. Although of course, I could just disconnect the wires to compare. Hmmmm.....
Q&A time!
22 hours ago, Bowie69 said:Not sure about the valve in all honesty, especially if a cheapo one - if it fails, what happens?
Cheapo one as a prototyping step. If it's worthwhile look for a better model. As a normally open unit, electrical failure is (should be!) fail safe. You'd have to chop one up and look at the guts of the thing. Alternatively it could jam closed, but it's all brass moving parts so unless you've got a lot of carp in your cooling system.... But then you've got bigger problems elsewhere.
22 hours ago, Bowie69 said:The fans on the front of the rad are for the aircon, aren't they?
Yup - and with the Davies Craig 150 pump config on my initial lashed up first engine run, they seemed to be doing an ok job. Somebody must have tried using Disco/RR aircon fans before?
22 hours ago, Bowie69 said:And yes of course I have chopped up a thermostat, when one fails shut in the middle of winter what do you do?
Rush about wringing hands?
21 hours ago, AlWorms said:I like your thinking
Please communicate your opinion to the woman in my life...
21 hours ago, AlWorms said:I have Aspergers
I subscribe to the view that "The World Needs People With Asperger’s Syndrome", although I'm not keen on the term "normal":
https://www.dana.org/article/the-world-needs-people-with-aspergers-syndrome/
21 hours ago, AlWorms said:sometimes I need to be told the STFU
Nah - give it all you've got
Sounds like you're busy with a whole lot of projects! Not sure that I'd want to mess with the internals of the RV8 in that way myself though - I need to get this truck on the road asap!
21 hours ago, AlWorms said:What is your main reasoning for not wanting flow to the heater core all the time?
Aah - that's to do with how I think I want to implement the heating/aircon. My wintertime project. Along with the new paint job. And the suspension overhaul. And the and the and the........
A good question for @TSD though!
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Posts must have crossed!
For those now confused I deleted a chunk on my last posting to do with fiddling with the by-pass circuit. A penny dropped and I need to take some more measurements today, will rehash later today...
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9 hours ago, AlWorms said:
14CUX is fun
Yeah - you're not a weirdo or anything 😉 But great! Sadly I need to be away next week and it's also the time of year where the sun is shining. Living in the far west of Cornwall friends and family start asking if they might be able to stop by to say hello. For a couple of weeks. That's going to put a bit of a dent in the proceedings, but I'll get there with the 14CUX eventually.
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6 hours ago, Junglie said:
I think I knew it was going to be a Disco 1 or Range Rover book I needed, guess I was looking for a pointer as to where to find it
Have you got the RAVE stuff? I believe they went from physical books to computer based, but it's all essentially pdf. That's my go to for engine and other relevant bits. Can't immediately recall where I got it from now....
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11 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:
Personally I'm not a fan of plastic bits in my cooling system (EG plastic header tanks, plastic rad tanks, plastic hose bits) as when they fail they're totally un-repairable whereas a metal thing can usually be bodged up in the field. Copper stuff especially can be done with basic plumbing bits - blowlamp & solder.
Yup - not going to fight you on any of that, and thanks for the lead...
9 hours ago, TSD said:There's a fair few solenoid operated H valves if you look around
Sure - the interest really was on whether any sort of favourite might have emerged. Will certainly look in the German direction as a starting point, there certainly seem to be a fair few of the used 3D0820035 model on ebay as a first look.
Interesting point though, were the original Land Rover ones a snap on/off job or a graduated thing using the vacuum system? I know there was all sorts of clever dickery going on with airflow mixing inside the massive Disco/RR heater unit
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17 hours ago, AlWorms said:
The 14CUX closed loop settings vary by software AND MAP settings - etc etc
Whoa fella - I need full and unfettered access to your brain. Well, maybe not all of it.
I try to group my questions by topic because you seem to get more input from folks that way, and it's then easier for anyone in the future to find information. This forum is a massive repository of information and experience and it's a wonderful thing that people provide support and advice in the way they do.
I have been planning to start a thread on the 14CUX to try to group as much info as possible in one place. I want to "finish" this one first and there's a bit of a way to go yet and also complete the EUC searching already started, but as a control systems guy I want to understand the 14CUX as far as I can. I reckon that's about a week away so don't go anywhere! Unless somebody else wants to start that first of course. And maybe it's been done already - searches not finished yet - don't beat me up.
So we've given thermostats, radiators and hoses a good old going over and now I'd like to pick your collective brains on the heater/bypass circuit if I could. In the Disco 1 donor I bought, the heater circuit appears to act as the bypass mechanism, meaning the heater core is getting hot coolant all the time. Frankly, I don't want it working that way. Here's the Disco pipework disappearing into the heater:
I managed to turn up switch valve BTR4022 which just dumps the coolant back to the pump inlet:
Pic courtesy of Britcar. https://britcar.com/product.php/83105/0/coolant_by_passive_heater_valve___v8___range_rover_classic_from_vin_ma647645_to_1994___discovery_1_1989_1998
Says it's applicable to the Disco 1, and you can see it would (probably) line up perfectly, but mine didn't have that. Not sure how it's actuated - obviously pneumatic and I don't know that I'd want that anyway. Or would I? Anybody have any suggestions for an electrically operated one? Must have been done before....
V8 Exhaust
in Defender Forum (1983 - 2016)
Posted
Well that took longer than it was supposed to. Long story...
Here's a walk through of what I did so's you can tell me how I should have done it. First off, olive CRC4579L in place and nuts finger tight. Downpipes supported at the rear in the guesstimated correct position:
Here's the centre section strapped up into place with the gasket between the mid and rear sections and tightened up:
And the rear end sitting about right:
I had to make up a length of box section to get hanger ESR3294 to sit correctly:
Which bolts up like so:
Yeah, some work still to do on that...
With the front and rear points now fixed, attention turns to the front of the mid section. I chopped all the hangers off of the donor Disco exhaust, and made this:
Cute ain't it? Problem being that I couldn't get a decent measurement to get it to hang correctly. This way I could wind the contraption up and down until it felt right. It looks much worse in this pic than in real life:
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I had to wrench the YRM 300 TdI middle hanger (designated 016B) around through about 90 deg to get it to sit about right. And just to show the lower end:
OK, beautiful it's not, but it'll give me a pattern to work from next time around when I'm fitting a proper exhaust system and I'll rework the hanger at that point. Probably...
That leaves the middle hanger. I made this:
3mm steel plate with one of the original Disco 1 hangers welded on. Yeah, I know. But it's not going to fall off.
That was much easier to measure up, and fits like so:
I bolted it on using the self-levelling unit fixings. Happy with that one.
So I have a set of hangers that should do the job for the foreseeable, and means that when I come to fit a stainless system I should be able to go out and buy a standard TD5 one and it'll just go on without having to think about it. Well - maybe.
On to the next outstanding problem...