David_LLAMA4x4

I think you are probably right... live and let live. And yes, he has oodles of all sorts of motorsport experience to fall back on. To be honest I think that is what bugs him... he knows what is what and could help the others save a fortune and stop them falling into so many disasters if only they would listen instead of already knowing better! David

Perfect thank you, I knew someone would know! David

The title should read 'controversial' not ' contorversial' !!! Must learn to type one day And I spelt deliberately wrong as well!!! David

I had a converstaion yesterday with an old friend who left offroading a long while ago now for circuit racing but has since ( only recently ) come back to the mud. During this conversation, which included all sorts of random tales, he made a couple of astounding ( to me ) observations of the 'new offroader': For such a strongly opinionated bunch of people, who have all driven up steeper hills than anyone else ever has, driven through deeper water than was actually even at the venue and built a new sort of supension or transmission mods that not even an F1 engineer would be capable of bodging why are they all such fashion victims?? Why do they all rush out to get the latest thing featured in the mags? why do they follow a direction that can simply be proven to be no where near as good as it claims? Why do they all fit Safari snorkels to cars that only go shopping and have no other waterproofing whatsoever?? The list is endless... Are they not as individual and unique as they make out, are they just sheep in a now marketing dominated sport? As in the title I'm sure this will provoke anger ( or embarassment? ) amongst some forum memembers but what are the views of you all. Is he right? David

What sort of wattage is the average central heating pump??? 240v domestic use. I said it was OT! David

I tried this route in about 1985 and still haven;t got anywhere!!! Even if you turn the Series hub down at the back and mount the disc direct onto it which gets around the driveshaft length / flange bolt pattern problems there is still nowhaere sensible to mount the calipers.... There is however an easy, resonably cheap and very enjoyable way of getting discs onto the front of a series: It is all bolt on, made up of standard parts with readily available spares and comes with a free weekend away... Get a cheap weekend break to Barcelona, go round the industrial bit, not the beach and buy a second hand setup off a Santana!!! David PS If you want a travel guide then as long as you pay me, the wife and kids will come with you to help in the search

Will, I think you have hit the nail on the head when you say 'driven offroad'.... Any bush fitted to a car that only does 4k a year and that is pleasnat day out / shopping trolley will last for ages. Obvious. Where bushes start to wear out quickly is where they are constantly articulated to their extremes. Again obvious. In this scenario you can kill any bushes in a day! BUT one day in the Cevenol Trophy killed about 6 different poly bushes on the rear arms of one of our crowd's 90. The poly was just flexing so much on the rocky terrain that it was breaking up and leving just the middle plate of the donut bolted to the chassis and 2 washers rattling around either side of it with no bushing material in sight! After the supplu ( nicking spares off other competitors ) had dried up the only option was to purchase a Genuine pair and fit them. The vehicle then finished the evnt and spent another week on holiday in the Sth of France before driving home!. The Poly ( poly ) bushes simply could not cope with ethe constant flexing. I have also seen vehicle suffer the same failings at UK fundays - one had to drive home with ring spanners making up the gap left by the missing bush!!! They were blue ones IIRC. The Frencj mishaps were all colours / makes / styles - none of them could cope. Then, all of you who are happy at the moment, wait till it fails the MOT on the axle end of rear arms being wobbly - then try pinching up the bolt to find they are still loose. Then take the bolt out and look at the slots you have where you should have round holes..... weld a washer on to the bracket and you have a round hole again - or just bin the cack bushes now before it is too late. Can you tell I don't like poly bushes??? David

Chris, If I had £1 for every person that I have had to advise to bin the Poly ( or poly ) bushes and put OEM ones back in then I would be very happy to be writing this post front the Pyrenees somewhere!! IMHO they are all carp and only work short term if you only use your vehicle for tiny axle articulations every so often! Long term damage may also be that the Ppolybushes have survived intact but worn the holes in the hockey sticks so much that you'lll never press a proper bush back in again - they will just wobble into place. The only place worse than the hockey sticjs to use them is at the chassis end of the rear arms where they fall aprt the minute you start to use them for anything other than road use! David

The simple answer is ' Yes, of course you can'... What will a lot harder is getting the mounts for the second set made correctly so that they are fully compressed and fully extended at the same time as the original otherwise one way or the other you will get restricted travel.... Why do you want twin shocks?? It is only really at speed whilst racing offroad I have ever found one set unable to cope... under normal offroad / onraod use even when fully laden a single shock should do it. David

No reason at all I suppose - they would then take much longer shocks and they could stick out through the bonnet if they had to the idea remains the same.... The one reason I chose to sell Gwyn's bracketry was the simplicity of a system that offers so much: The shock is the same part in all 4 corners making spares at your end and stock at my end much easier to manage. Any more travel than this setup allows really does need a hell of a lot more work. It already reaches the limits of propshafts, a-frame ball joints and radius arms. Whilst all of these can be improved upon firther with rose joints, longer arms, 3 links etc., etc. it just starts moving the costs higher and higher. The rear shock bracket also angles the damper giving far more travel than the 11" shock would give in the vertical position. The pin offers more than enough movement as long as you don't do the bushes so tight that the poor thing can't move. These bushes need only be tight enough to prevent up and down slop - loose enough for the unit to rotate in them is enough for them to work properly as a bush and not restrict movement. Again you can go further with swivels and rose joints and things but I believe that this kit goes as far as the rest of the car can cope with anyway unless you want to do loads more work / money so why change from the mountings that can cope anyway... Quite simply I think that this is a perfect match of excellant articultion on a car that remains both useable and reliable. If you go any further than this setup allows you are reacjhing too far into the offroad side of the compromise and it wll end up being trailered everywhere 'cos it is too much of a pig to drive on the road at anything over 30mph!

50x6 will be plenty strong enough for the front.... The eye at the top of the rear hinges perfectly but cannot flex so well across the vegicle - essential for crodd axle articulation..... the other way of seeing this requirement is to look at D44's new swivel mount where it uses the eye to pivot for crossaxle and the mount itself swivels for arc. I strongly suggest getting the shocks first and making the brackets to suit for a number of reasons... The obvious one is that there may not be a shock available that fits your open / compressed length perfectly mening you will have to risk damage to it or restrict some of its travel... Another more obscure one but ask anyone who has had any of my Rough Country ones so far and they will tell you the same: whilst any shock absorber will do the job, one that is valved for something completely different will not damp as well as one that is tailor made for an application. Whilst most aftermarket shocks have several stage sensing valving that encompasses the LR vehicle within this range you mat be very near to the outer edge of this band... A shock that is tailor valved for LR vehicles will overall give far better damping to that vehicle than one that happens to be the right length but is for a completelu different car but has had LR style mountings welded to it. David

The front will be easy - just make a turret 2" taller than a standard one.... If you set on making your own for the rear you will either need to literally copy one, which is a bit cheeky, ir design something similar yourself, which is probably easiest made in situ - especially if you are just after a 1 off pair... Buy the shocks ( you know the ones I would suggest ) and fasten them to the axle then with the car on its bumpstop ( remove the spring ) and allowing a bit more for cross articulation make the bracket to suit the compressed length of the shock. Then remember that a similar setup will need a load more work aswell: relocation cones, spring retainers, wide angle propshaft ( on a 90 ) and really cranked rear arms as well to get the most out of it. If I was you I would phone Gwyn for all the brackets and ask him for some shocks to suit ( he does OME and my Rough Country to suit ) and have it all arrive in a big box. I know the pleasure is in the fabrication and proud of your own work but sometimes it is best to get it spot on and tried and tested..... I know: I have caught trout on flies I have tied myself, but not as many as commercially tied ones!! David

I think the biggest difference is in the 9000 having pressurised gas in them. If you compress a 3000 it stays shut, if you compress a 9000 it grows again to it's full length. I do not know the difference in damping effect but would suggest with the wide range of valving ( automatically adjusts ) the damping of either is pretty much the same in use. The idea of the pressureised gas is to keep the oil under control. If the oil inthem starts to get all frothy and over excited the pocket of gas at about 200psi will squash it back down into a liquid. That way the 9000 is a 'heavier duty' shock as it can cope with more excitemnet than the 300 that will just get all frothy and lose efficiency.. David

In theory: Front. measured from bade of pin to base of pin. STD 21.5" +2" 24.5" Rear. measured from centre of eye to base of pin STD 21.5" +2" 24.5" Where the base of pin is described as where the pin welds to the body of the shock Hope that helps a little David

A wheel with spring pressure will always be better than a wheel with no weight on it al all. Having said that any wheel actually on the floor is beeter than one just waving about in the air! What i argue against is suspension systems that lose 'sprung articulation' in favour of 'unsprung articulation' which is simply less effective and a backward step.. but good for the 'look how far my wheel can fall' boasts. The only sensible reason to pack bumpstops is to prevent big tyres from hitting bodywork on the way back up as it is easier to do it this way than to chop bodtwork away. A 33" tyre will just about squeeze into the gap left by standard bumpstops. This size of tyre is normally big enough for most jobs.. How many vehicles with 2" lower turrets and +2" shocks giving loads of down but no up have tyres this big - very few I would suggest.... They have probably got 31" and a suspension package that is less effective than the one they started with!! David

I agree.... there is no point in gaing 4" of unsprung down at the expense of 4" of sprung up. More travel is ideal whether sprung or unspring but sprung articulation has more traction / effect than unsprung. Too many of the curreny kits ( IMHO ) do things wrongish.... They allow the wheel to drop miles but to keep the shocks safe from over comprssion the bumpstops have to be spaced so much that the axle can no longer go up any. I reckon that there is 1" of safety margin in a standard setup that can be eaten into. That means a 1" drop turret on the front and a 2" dropo bracket on the rear is all that can be fitted without needing to pack the bumpstops by however much more you have gone down with. ***************************************************** Blatant advertising removed after receipt of compaints. This forum is totally independant paid for by members with no ties to any supplier, blatant advertising will be removed. ******************************************************* David

All i do is send out what is ordered!!! Don't blame me I'm nice really David

No first hand experience of the whole kit nut I know the longer brakehoses darren supplies as part of his kit come from a most magificent supplier David

You guessed right Ian I have the shocks sorted no problem and, so far, I am over the moon with the feedback I am getting from the people now using my Rough Country shocks - they all accept that whilst they are a bit dearer than the obvious competition they were well worth the extra.... I think that this thread is already showing that as far as is reasonable anybody willing to pay £50 -£ 60 per spring can have a setup worth having... It is amazing how few answers have come from anyone defending the set of springs they bought for £100 and would recommend to everyone else on here!! David

No we are just talking normal 90 / Disco1 / RRC vehicles. I am sure some of the springs off an armoured vehicle may well be so beefed up raterate wise that a std weight vehicle would not deflect them at all giving a lift, BUT it would be a hideous ride quality with little or no upward articultion..... I am after a spring that will lift to a required height, stiffen the rate only enough to counter the increased height of the COG and articulate off road to the full travel of the shocks..... OME do some that are just about spot on, as Simon R says and as I too have confirmed they can be made easily enough but these seem to cost more than the mass LR population want to pay. In the interests of volume sales I was after a simple off the shelf 'lift spring' that actually worked prioperly!!! The hunt isstill on David

I agree with the Genuine route but am struggling to find a 2" lift out of the off the shelf springs..... I also agree entirely with the 'too cost sensitive' theory - the punters simply won't pay enough to buy a goodd quality part. This research ( so far ) seems to be pointing to the fact that if you won't pay £50ish per spring ( OME or taylor made ) then you're not going to get a good one!!!! Just confirming that there is an issue with supplying springs to the mass LR market..... David

I am having trouble finding springs that I can rely on to sell as part of a 2" lift kit. With the exception of OME ( which I can buy right and sell with confidence ) I cannot find a spring setup that actually works!! OME would be my choice to supplu but customers are after a ' cheaper alternative'.... All the (mostly blue ones and yellow) ones I have had any experience with thus far simply cannot be relied on to give an equal lift, a correct height of lift or a useable articulation... Any suggestions what you have used and actually been impressed by rather than fitted and put with for LR90, Disco 1 and RRC applications please...... David

I have a .pdf of an application guide / spec sheet > email me on david@llama4x4.co.uk and I could send it to you - most of it is all about Jeep / Dodge / GMC etc. though The longest I have with LR style pin / pin are: measured from base of pin ( where it joins to the body ) to base of pin are 26.5" open and 15" closed The longest I have on this shipment are eye / eye with 5/8" bushes and measured centre of eye to centre of eye are 29.82" open down to 17.67" closed They are all the same price @ £39.95 each inc boots, bushes and VAT Hope these specs are of some help... David

The front is easy- I have Rough Country units on the shelf that fit the extended / compressed length almost to the cm... The rear is going to be more awkward: A shock that is that long open will struggle to get that short compressed.... you will either need to drop the top bracket or space the bumpstops, either way you will lose some travel over what you have measured. You will probably also struggle to get a shock that long with an eye top / pin bottom ( as per a LR ). It is far more likely to be an eye / eye type fitting..... At the front you could get a lot better than what you have now simply by having 2" higher turrets and using an 11.5" travel shock. I have all the bits on the shelf - turrets and shocks At the rear you need to look at your mountings again. The way i have chosen to go is to use the same shock as on the front ( 1 spare fits all round ) and a new upper mounting to adjust to the correct length and the pin / pin type fixing. This will give plenty enough travel to necessitate a wide angle prop ( on a 90 ) and cranked arms and probably a wide angle ballgoing from X-eng..... Hope this is of some help David

I sell Gwyn's bracketry to go with my Rough Country shocks... it is simple, strong and actually worked out properly! Too much of the other stuff simply doesn't add up when you do the shock length / travel to mounting heights!! David