Facelift td4 hard starting, lumpy idle

[gadget]

I've acquired another freelander (I know, I should've learned this lesson by having one already).

It's hard to start. Takes about 10-12 seconds of cranking to get it to fire. When it does start it idles at around 790 rpm and is lumpy.

It doesn't matter if the engine is hot or cold, when left for 10 minutes after stopping it is hard to start again. If i stop the engine and then start it within a few seconds it will fire instantly.

New pierburg low pressure fuel pump and mahle filter fitted.

Swapped cam sensor for good from other freelander.

Same symptoms with maf connected or not.

Current error codes from engine are P0100, P1110 and P0110. These are all related to maf and air temp sensors being unplugged at the moment.

Low pressure fuel at idle is 319 kPa - 310kPa at 1400 rpm

High pressure fuel at idle is 29,000 kPa = 68,000kPa at 1400 rpm

Edit:

I also tried pulling the fuel pressure sensor plug off whilst the engine was running. Engine dies and will not start with that plug removed.

 

Duff injectors, or something else?

Edited March 28, 2020 by gadget

[smallfry]

Was it doing this BEFORE the low pressure pump was changed ? Or did you change the pump BECAUSE of it ?

Does it smoke or smell after idling for a while. Vapour stings the eyes a bit ?

Can you check the injector correction values with your scanner ?

Most likely an injector, which will not throw up any code, or the little O ring on the pressure regulator, although this normally will be a no start at all.

Are you able to do a leak off test ?

[gadget]

It had the starting and lumpy problems with the old pump and filter. The pump was making odd noises and changing it's tone.

So a swapped the pump and filter. It made no difference whatsoever to the engine problems.

I'm using autocom to read the ecu data. All of the live data for the cylinders is reported as 0, so i' suspecting it can't read that data properly.

I'll see if I can put some tubing together for a leak off test.

[Dorsetfreelander]

I would start with the glow plugs.  What does the exhaust smoke look like?  Black would indicate unburnt fuel.    I had a similar problem with a Citroen diesel and one glow plug had failed.  Starting was difficult and it was then lumpy until it warmed up.   Glow plugs remain on for a few minutes after the engine has started.  You might be able to test in situ with a multimeter.   

[gadget]

Glow plugs all check ok.

A leak test showed 2 of the 4 injectors were dumping quite a lot more fuel via leak off than the others.

I pulled all the injectors and they were rather cruddy. Of the 5 nozzle jets on each injector 2 injectors had 3 working jets, and the other 2 had 1 working jet.

They're stripped down and soaking ready for the ultrasonic tank tomorrow.

[smallfry]

Its more likely the internal seals have gone, this is normally the problem, so it will be interesting to see if ultrasonics work. Have you stripped them to component form ?

[FridgeFreezer]

You say you changed the cam sensor, if these have a crank sensor I'd look at that if it's a cheap test.

[gadget]

10 hours ago, smallfry said:

Its more likely the internal seals have gone, this is normally the problem, so it will be interesting to see if ultrasonics work. Have you stripped them to component form ?

I've taken the nozzle, needle, spring, seat and puck out of the injectors. Three of them have cleaned up nicely. One still has blocked nozzle jets. It's having another round.

8 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

You say you changed the cam sensor, if these have a crank sensor I'd look at that if it's a cheap test.

I can take the crank sensor from our working freelander to test if cleaning the injectors has no effect.

[smallfry]

10 minutes ago, gadget said:

I've taken the nozzle, needle, spring, seat and puck out of the injectors. Three of them have cleaned up nicely. One still has blocked nozzle jets. It's having another round.

I can take the crank sensor from our working freelander to test if cleaning the injectors has no effect.

There is a little ball in there too. Hope you haven't lost it !

Getting at the crank sensor makes me feel tired. The area is usually full of crud and rust and its easy to get some inside the engine if not careful, not to mention all the stuff you have to take off to get at it 

[gadget]

I didn't find and balls in the injectors. The puck was the smallest thing I came across. It's tiny, maybe 2mm diameter and 1mm thick? It's located inside the tube that sits on the spring and floats between what i assume is the plunger from the head and the base of the nozzle?

If the cleaning doesn't work I've been offered a set of injectors from a rover 75. They're not 049 suffix, they're 030. Physically they would fit, but I don't know if they will work acceptably.

I've not looked to see where the crank sensor is. If it's an arse to get to i'll grab another rather than remove it from the working freelander.

[smallfry]

Sounds about right, the one I had was a ball.

Have you got a manual or auto ? They use either the 030 or the 049, but I cant remember which is which.

If you change them as a set, it will be fine. Provided they are all OK.

Crank sensor is behind the starter.

[gadget]

Injectors are back in and it is better, but not perfect.

Sometimes starts immediately, but now always starts in under 5 seconds. Idling is better, but still not as smooth as the other freelander. Leak back is still a little worse on two injectors, but much improved over original.

On 3/30/2020 at 11:30 PM, smallfry said:

Have you got a manual or auto ? They use either the 030 or the 049, but I cant remember which is which.

If you change them as a set, it will be fine. Provided they are all OK.

Crank sensor is behind the starter.

Both freelanders are manual and have the 049 suffix injectors. The numbers I turn up for auto are suffix 130.

I've been up to the rover 75 today and pulled 3 of the 4 from it. One is stubbornly refusing to budge. I'll take another crack at it later in the week.

The injectors are similar to the freelander but there are differences. There are no upper o-rings fitted to the 030 types. They seem to rely on a flexible skirt part way into the injector bore. Judging by the rust on the injector bodies the skirts don't work too well. The injector seat washers are much thinner than the ones in the freelander.

The m47 in the rover gets 129bhp with these injectors, so maybe the difference is flow rate?

 

[smallfry]

I have had both manual and auto, and the current one is auto and I fitted 030 injectors to it as they were free ! Got some spare too.

When I compared they looked physically the same, and mine definitely have O rings. I reused the copper washers after heating with a blowlamp and allowing to cool.

Runs fine, but sometimes takes a few turns more to start. Cant say I have noticed any neck snapping improvement in acceleration though, or any noticeable difference in fuel consumption.

My old Renault Master van does about 8 MPG more ! 

Tell me though, when it is idling, if you take the oil filler cap off, do you get a fair bit of puffing, if you put your hand over it ? 

[gadget]

I'll try and get a decent picture of one of these 030 injectors so you can see the differences. I've noticed that part of the body can slide a few mm up and down the length of them too.

Did you fit the 2mm thick copper washers from the freelander or the thinner rover 75 washers?

There is blowback from the crank case. I've replaced the PCV filter (with a BMW plastic thing) and valve though to rule those out as problems.

[smallfry]

I remember one of the injectors had a sliding part. The others didn't, so I assumed that the sliding part was stuck on the others. Having had a good look, I could not see how it would affect the fitting, so didn't worry too much about it.

As for the washers, again I didn't take much notice, I just used what I had. I cannot see how it would matter anyway.

At the time of this I had had enough of it, and wanted to torch the thing.

No diesel engine I have had puff like these things, I wondered if the piston rings were not up to the job ! Keeping the oil inside the engine seems to be a real problem. The high crankcase pressure causes oil leaks .

[gadget]

Our 2001 freelander had a blocked PCV filter when we got it. The pressure had pushed oil past the dipstick and through the rear crank oil seal.

Replacing the filter with the BMW plastic alternative cured the pressure issue. The rear seal still weeps, but not enough to worry about.

The facelift freelander was cheap because it has a raft of faults. If I fix it, it replaces the 2001. If I can't fix it it becomes a bag of parts.

Two of the three 030 injectors have a part that slides. The third has rusted to the main body. I think the fourth has freed in the sliding part, but that has rusted to the head. Further violence required.

[gadget]

This is what my 030 injectors look like.

 

No recess for upper o-ring.

I got the stubborn one from the rover 75 and have fitted the set to the freelander. Lumpy idle gone.

Most of the time it starts within 2 crank turns, just like our other freelander. Sometimes it takes 5 seconds of cranking before it starts. The kind of thing i'd expect if there was air in the fuel after a filter change. This is my first experience with the under arch pump configuration and this may be normal, but the under arch pump is gurgling more than I would think it should. Not sure how to describe this properly, but I would expect more of a whooshing from the fuel than a gurgle. I've had the carrier off again to check for leaks, but everything is sound.

Other oddities - taking the engine up to the rev limiter at one point had the engine holding back and hunting between 4k and 4k5 revs. This behaviour seems to have gone now. There is an almighty whine sometimes when getting into the high revs. The kind of sound that I would think a turbo would make if the turbine wheel was running against the housing. No obvious split hoses and there is good pressure in the hoses.

I'm going to read the codes again tomorrow and see if there are any new entries.

[smallfry]

My pump hums, obviously the electric bit, but you can also hear fluid shifting, but this makes a variable sound. If there is an air leak, it would be between the tank pickup and the pump, but the electric pump will take up any slack, as ts independent of the engine speed.

II have found that mine takes slightly longer to start if it has been standing, because the battery is slightly discharged by systems at idle. So it does not turn over as fast.

[gadget]

I'll need to trace the fuel pipes from the tank to the sedimenter and check for leaks.

I've cleared the codes and re-run the rev limiter test and I have two new codes. 0500 which the interweb tells me is Vehicle Speed Sensor related. I'm not sure what to make of this being that I was parked and in neutral??

The other code is P1470 which is Boost Solenoid, so something turbo related to hunt down.

 

[gadget]

Vacuum pipe from tee to EGR solenoid has rubbed through against an engine part. That might be enough to stop the turbo actuator at the rev limit. I'll block that off to test tomorrow.

The vacuum pipe from the accumilator to the turbo solenoid is a much fatter unbraided pipe than the EGR. Anyone know the dimensions for this? LR Part number STC4647 if that is any help at all.

[FridgeFreezer]

12 hours ago, gadget said:

Vacuum pipe from tee to EGR solenoid has rubbed through against an engine part. That might be enough to stop the turbo actuator at the rev limit. I'll block that off to test tomorrow.

That'll do it, all the vacuum will leak out and the turbo won't be actuating properly or maybe at all. 6mm push-fit nylon pneumatic hose is a good fit for those pipes.

[gadget]

With that pipe blocked off the P1470 is mostly gone. I say mostly because in the tests i've been doing today it has popped up once. I'll pull the turbo solenoid and clean it in case it has fouled.

It's full or surprises and gave a new behaviour today. In the early rev limit checks after blocking the vacuum pipe, when the engine dropped to idle speed it sounded very unwell. Really lumpy, labouring and finally stalled. Trying to start after this the engine was turning over VERY slowly. It did this a few times and has been fine since.

I've been watching the fuel pressures whilst running up to rev limit. The lp side starts off around 320kPa and as the revs increase is progressively drops to around 250kPa.

The high pressure starts around 28-29,000kPa at idle and slowly increases with revs to a peak of around 120,000kPa, but then starts to reduce to around 88,000kPa at 4780RPM. Is that drop at high revs normal?

7 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

That'll do it, all the vacuum will leak out and the turbo won't be actuating properly or maybe at all. 6mm push-fit nylon pneumatic hose is a good fit for those pipes.

Is that stuff OK near the exhaust manifold? The solenoid isn't very close to the turbo, but I imagine it will be toasty there.

[FridgeFreezer]

Cleaning the turbo solenoid?

I re-plumbed mine with push-fit pipe after the same failure (pipe rubbed through) and it went for years with no problems, the turbo solenoid isn't that close to the hot stuff.

[gadget]

4 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Cleaning the turbo solenoid?

Pull the metal collar from the top of the solenoid and withdraw the diaphragm and plunger and give it a quick check and clean.

 

4 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I re-plumbed mine with push-fit pipe after the same failure (pipe rubbed through) and it went for years with no problems, the turbo solenoid isn't that close to the hot stuff.

I'll grab a bundle of push fit and give it a whirl

 

Earlier I popped the cover over the tank and checked the pipework. No obvious leaks of diesel and no pipe clip on the flow pipe push fitting, only one on the return.

I've put a jubilee on there but no great change in the gurgling sound. The only other place i can see that air could enter before the pump is through the sedimenter.

Edited April 5, 2020 by gadget