Raggylad Posted July 30, 2023 Share Posted July 30, 2023 I hesitate to ask this in the land of Megasquirt and Megajolt enthusiasts ! (* see below for why) Does anyone have experience of using the 123 Ignition Tune or Tune+ systems ? As seen here: https://123ignition.com/products/?filter_cylinders=8&filter_brand=rover I have run my 1983 110 V8 on LPG and petrol since 2007, using a simple single point system with a BLOS 'LPG carb' (variable mixer) through SU HIF44 carbs. At the same time as this was installed I converted the points Lucas 35D8 distributor to electronic with an Aldon Ignitor. Overall, it has run pretty well, although setting the timing was a compromise between the needs of LPG (my primary fuel) and petrol (backup). It was becoming pretty clear in the last few months that the ignition system was degrading; replacing the coil had little effect and I'm in the process of temporarily converting back to points to see if it is anything to do with the Aldon bits. The distributor (now 40 years old) is also showing signs of wear - wobble and float in the shaft and dodgy vacuum advance. I suspect that I'm looking at a new distributor in the near future. Which brings me to the 123 Ignition systems. They are pricey (even though it is cheaper to buy direct from the manufacturer in Holland and pay the import duty, VAT, etc than to buy in the UK) but offer the advantage of a minimum of two (Tune) and many (Tune+) programmable centrifugal and vacuum advance curves (ie: I can have settings for both fuels) and look remarkably easy to install and set up. The classic car crowd seem very happy with them, but I can't find much about their use in Land Rovers. Are they worth the extra £££ ? *Ten years ago, I did consider going down the Megajolt route to address the LPG/Petrol timing issues. I even bought most of the kit to do so but have never installed it. Ultimately it seemed to much faff to install and too much modification of the engine from standard; not something that I chose to do just for the fun of it. I still have the MJ ECU, EDIS, timing wheel & other components, etc but am thinking of selling it all TBF - its just sitting in a box in the workshop ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted July 30, 2023 Share Posted July 30, 2023 Heard good things about them(just not LR specifically) and as you need a dizzy it seems like a no-hassle solution to me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 17 hours ago, Raggylad said: I still have the MJ ECU, EDIS, timing wheel & other components, etc but am thinking of selling it all TBF @Hybrid_From_Hell might be interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raggylad Posted October 26, 2023 Author Share Posted October 26, 2023 Took the plunge and bought a 123 Tune distributor from 123Ignition Shop in the NL (cheapest online price I could find, even after paying import taxes, etc). Rebuilt and set up the carbs for petrol. Fitted the 123 Tune and loaded petrol and LPG centrifugal & vacuum advance curves for LR 110 V8 from 123Ignition Shop's online library - having checked that the centrifugal curves were more or less where my research indicated they should be - nothing too radical ! Ran like a dream on petrol. Had the LPG system completely overhauled (LPG Service Centre, Port Tennant, Swansea - excellent job and reasonable cost). 123 distributor connected to the LPG switchery so that the system switched to LPG curve for LPG and petrol curve for petrol. Now (a month on) runs better than it ever has in the nearly 20 years that I've owned it. Money well spent. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 Excellent, very good news! (for those that like clockwork 😛 ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red110 Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 Two years ago I changed from Lumenition to 123 in my Series 2A 2.5 and the result was astounding, in terms of perceived power and driveability. A friend followed the same path on his 2.5 2A and is delighted too. A very good upgrade for a daily driver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobAnzac Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 Thanks for this Raggylad This has made me consider one for my 90 V8. I have a 123 (switch version) in an Austin 1300 and it works very well. It came with 16 pre-installed curves, and a good table in the manual correlating switch number to original Lucas curve numbers . The pdf manuals are available to download on the spec page for each distributor. There was an exact match to my original points distributor, and switching between curves involved removing a plug in the side of the distributor and rotating a micro switch with a small screwdriver. No computers or phones involved, but it can't do what you are doing, i.e switching between curves on the fly when you change fuels. They don't appear to have a "switch" version for the Rover V8, only the "tune" (computer and usb lead ) and "tune+" (phone app and bluetooth ) but from what you say above, they do have curves in their library that include Landrover versions of the V8. Is that library accessible before purchase ? - I had a hunt around the website but couldn't find anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobAnzac Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 Actually might have an answer to my own question Firstly the English version of the NL online shop is here https://www.123ignitionshop.com/gb/ (a different site to the main 123 site) And on that site there is this page https://www.123ignitionshop.com/gb/content/11-123tune-curves-download-page Looks like you need to install the software on a computer to look at them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raggylad Posted October 30, 2023 Author Share Posted October 30, 2023 You have beaten me to it ! That's exactly where I got the curves that I've installed from. If running on petrol, this is the one I used: land rover 110 Distributor lucas 35DM8 & 35DLM8 / benzine Afstellen op 8 graden voor bdp bij 750 rpm mat stroboscoop lamp The LPG one is the line above. The link takes you to what is effectively a text file, but it's a pretty straightforward job to read off the values for both centrifugal & vacuum advance and enter them manually into the 123 software. I couldn't find a way to load the file directly into the software. One minor issue that I ran into: you are invited to download the latest version of the 123 Tune software from either the retail supplier or manufacturer's sites. I couldn't get this to work on the junker Windows 10 laptop that I was using (my normal laptop is Ubuntu Linux; can't stand Microsoft or Apple - but that's a story for another forum !). A quick email to customer support at the manufacturer got me a slightly earlier version which worked perfectly. Very friendly and helpful; their English is better than mine ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raggylad Posted October 30, 2023 Author Share Posted October 30, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, RobAnzac said: Thanks for this Raggylad This has made me consider one for my 90 V8. I have a 123 (switch version) in an Austin 1300 and it works very well. It came with 16 pre-installed curves, and a good table in the manual correlating switch number to original Lucas curve numbers . The pdf manuals are available to download on the spec page for each distributor. There was an exact match to my original points distributor, and switching between curves involved removing a plug in the side of the distributor and rotating a micro switch with a small screwdriver. No computers or phones involved, but it can't do what you are doing, i.e switching between curves on the fly when you change fuels. They don't appear to have a "switch" version for the Rover V8, only the "tune" (computer and usb lead ) and "tune+" (phone app and bluetooth ) but from what you say above, they do have curves in their library that include Landrover versions of the V8. Is that library accessible before purchase ? - I had a hunt around the website but couldn't find anything I suppose the difference with the Tune (USB) and Tune+ (Bluetooth) versions when compared to the Switch is that you are not confined to 16 pre-loaded curves but can set up and adjust your own. There are so many possible permutations of engine/camshaft/distributor with the Rover V8 that, even if there had been a Switch version for the V8, I was wary of having to live with pre-set curves for ever. I've used the curves from the 123IgnitionShop library as a safe starter and, in truth, they seem pretty good. However, once I can get onto a dynamometer, I'll see if they can be improved on for my particular setup and (daily driver) needs. I went for the Tune version because it allows two curves to be loaded at the same time and you can switch between them on the fly - ideal for my dual fuel petrol/LPG setup - no more compromise advance settings. The Tune+ does away with the need for a USB connection to load curves, but only allows one curve at a time to be loaded into the ECU - so you can't switch on the fly. A bit more pricey too ... Edited October 30, 2023 by Raggylad clarity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobAnzac Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 I hadn't picked up that the Tune+ (bluetooth) only allows one curve, good to know, I would choose the Tune (USB) version every time as you never know when being able to switch to a second curve might come in handy. e.g keep a good baseline as reference, while you endlessly fiddle with a tuning curve. I downloaded the Tune (USB) software available from the website(s) and it installed and worked fine on Win 7 (though obviously I can't confirm if it would "talk" to a distributor as I haven't got one ... yet) It seems pretty straightforward. I wish I had something like this when I was mucking about with LPG on Holden V8's in the 90's. The biggest single improvement you can make to an LPG installation is timing. (usually more initial and less total) With this setup you could probably programme it to take initial timing out while cranking which would make life easier on startermotors and help with hot starts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobAnzac Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 I have just found this on the Australian vendor website https://www.123ignition.com.au/product/123rover-8-r-v/ So a "switch" version for the Rover V8 has existed with 16 pre-installed curves (0 to F) There is a link on the page to the Installation Manual (PDF) https://www.123ignition.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/rover-8-r-v.pdf Advance at 400-1000rpm, 2400, 4800 (total) is given for each curve + info on vacuum advance Following that is a table of Rover vehicles with a recommended 123 curve. The LR90/110 is curve "F" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 F*** me I've just seen the price on those, for that money you could almost bolt a megasquirt on with VAG coil packs and have no moving parts and fully 3D mappable ignition. Would be interested in seeing their various ignition maps/curves for reference though, anyone got a file / files? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 You or I could @FridgeFreezer , but many out there couldn't possibly manage it.... agree not cheap, but also not absolutely terrible for those wanting to run leaky fuel buckets: Bluetooth Fully Programmable Distributor • Alfaholics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raggylad Posted October 31, 2023 Author Share Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said: F*** me I've just seen the price on those, for that money you could almost bolt a megasquirt on with VAG coil packs and have no moving parts and fully 3D mappable ignition. Would be interested in seeing their various ignition maps/curves for reference though, anyone got a file / files? Yup ... bit of a gulp moment when I committed to buy. However, I pretty desperately needed a new distributor and did a lot of research on prices; cheapest for a generic Rover V8 (probably Chinese ?) was about £150 - most expensive, for a specific to 1983 110 V8 from Land Rover was ...... £1900 !!!. On that scale, the 123 isn't even half way up ! I've explained further up why I didn't go down the MJ route ten years ago. There's some curves at this link: https://www.123ignitionshop.com/gb/content/11-123tune-curves-download-page (I'm using the LR 110 V8 petrol & LPG ones from there. Petrol one is good; LPG one is OK but could probably do with some tweaking for my setup) and also in the manual that RobAnzac links to in the post above yours. You need graph paper and a pencil or plotting software to get a graphic, though. None of them are particularly radical. Edited October 31, 2023 by Raggylad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raggylad Posted October 31, 2023 Author Share Posted October 31, 2023 17 hours ago, RobAnzac said: I have just found this on the Australian vendor website https://www.123ignition.com.au/product/123rover-8-r-v/ So a "switch" version for the Rover V8 has existed with 16 pre-installed curves (0 to F) There is a link on the page to the Installation Manual (PDF) https://www.123ignition.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/rover-8-r-v.pdf Advance at 400-1000rpm, 2400, 4800 (total) is given for each curve + info on vacuum advance Following that is a table of Rover vehicles with a recommended 123 curve. The LR90/110 is curve "F" A very useful list, Ron - thanks for posting. I hadn't found that site in all my research on V8 distributor advance curves. It tends to prove my point about the almost endless permutations possible - which makes having the ability to adjust curves in either the Tune or Tune+ all the more attractive. For example, my original 15G prefix engine bust a bottom end casting almost ten years ago and had to be replaced. The replacement is a rebuilt early high compression 3.5 unit (ser no starting with 45. HC better for running LPG) with a 3.9 camshaft and a 'later' serpentine front end; originally running (& OK-ish until it started failing) with the distributor from the original 15G unit. Now look at the 16 curve options on that list and go 'Which curve ?' ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobAnzac Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) " You need graph paper and a pencil or plotting software to get a graphic " Yep, it is what I do " Now look at the 16 curve options on that list and go 'Which curve ? " You are right, especially for LPG, I doubt you will ever get what you want out of that lot, without a compromise that will irk you for the rest of your days Edited October 31, 2023 by RobAnzac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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