Trigger wheel first tooth angle BTDC

[James Kirk]

Hello,

I'm tuning a MS2 for a 98 Disco and I'm having issues with setting up the angle for the first tooth of the trigger wheel. I've read that the missing tooth is at 20 degrees after TDC and that would put the first tooth at 10 degrees after TDC. Tunerstudio doesn't like this number. Does anybody know what angle I should set it at?

Thank you and happy wheeling,

James Kirk

[Bowie69]

Edis or not? 

[James Kirk]

8 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Edis or not? 

Not sure, what is EDIS? I removed all of the original wiring harness and switching to the MS2 and using the original trigger wheel and CKP sensor.

James Kirk

[Bowie69]

OK in that case it doesn't really matter where it is, but you do need to set your offset in the software. 

[James Kirk]

1 hour ago, Bowie69 said:

OK in that case it doesn't really matter where it is, but you do need to set your offset in the software. 

Well, you lost me as it doesn't really matter! How can I time it right if I don't know where the first tooth is? Do I base it off TDC of the first cylinder? Which I'm not sure how to do with electronic fuel injection.

When you state offset are you referring to the skip pulses?

James Kirk

[FridgeFreezer]

What Bowie is saying is that you can give MS2 any offtset to work with - it doesn't mind where the missing tooth is.

But you do need to know where it is - and that involves finding TDC on your engine if you don't have a timing mark or anything else to go from (EG a cam sensor or crank sensor from the factory with a known orientation).

If you were using the Ford EDIS system it has a narrower range of offsets it will work with.

But you really need to tall us what ignition system/setup you are using with your MS2 - is it the original distributor, is it coil packs, is it Ford EDIS, or something else?

[Bowie69]

Yes, was a bit of a rushed reply, but essentially as Fridge says, do you know where your physical TDC is?

[FridgeFreezer]

I had to google it - 1998 is right on the point where a Disco could be a D1 or D2 so presumably 3.5 or 3.9 or 4.0 and with or without a distributor.

If it helps this is my old setup, if only for illustration.

[James Kirk]

5 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I had to google it - 1998 is right on the point where a Disco could be a D1 or D2 so presumably 3.5 or 3.9 or 4.0 and with or without a distributor.

If it helps this is my old setup, if only for illustration.

This is a D1 4.0 and I'm using the original coils and I wired in coil drivers on the MS2. I have it wired using the original CKP and reluctor ring, 35 and 1 missing tooth. Unfortunately, the ring is on the flywheel and unseeable without separating the engine and tranny. Attached is the information that I found on Shopkeypro that states the missing tooth is 20 degrees after TDC but, the MS2 didn't like it.

ckp.pdf

[Bowie69]

Find mwchanical tdc (either piston stop, dial gauge or whatever) mark it on your front pulley against a pointer you will likely have to make and get it running, and with a timing light see where it is. 

Set advance to 0 degrees in tunerstudio and make sure the mark on your front pulley is on zero and you have your timing set - physically and in your software. 

[FridgeFreezer]

2 hours ago, James Kirk said:

This is a D1 4.0 and I'm using the original coils and I wired in coil drivers on the MS2

You should probably know that direct coil drive is a fairly fussy system - you need to set up the VR sensor potentiometers inside the unit to get a good signal and the direct coil drive itself creates a lot of electrical noise in the ECU and can lead to resets.

Once it's working it's OK but getting it running can be a faff.

[James Kirk]

2 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

Find mwchanical tdc (either piston stop, dial gauge or whatever) mark it on your front pulley against a pointer you will likely have to make and get it running, and with a timing light see where it is. 

Set advance to 0 degrees in tunerstudio and make sure the mark on your front pulley is on zero and you have your timing set - physically and in your software. 

This is what I was thinking yesterday. Thanks for the advice.

[James Kirk]

37 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

You should probably know that direct coil drive is a fairly fussy system - you need to set up the VR sensor potentiometers inside the unit to get a good signal and the direct coil drive itself creates a lot of electrical noise in the ECU and can lead to resets.

Once it's working it's OK but getting it running can be a faff.

 

37 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

You should probably know that direct coil drive is a fairly fussy system - you need to set up the VR sensor potentiometers inside the unit to get a good signal and the direct coil drive itself creates a lot of electrical noise in the ECU and can lead to resets.

Once it's working it's OK but getting it running can be a faff.

This must be the reason for switching to the ford EDIS. I purchased and assembled the MS2 together before I found this forum. I will look into switching as the coil drivers were cheap and I would like to be more reliable, I would hate to have reset in the forest. Thanks for the information.

[FridgeFreezer]

These days I would not switch to EDIS as they are pretty old & hard to find now (Nige having bought almost all of them as far as I can tell!), I would switch to low-voltage triggered coil packs (Nige sells VAG coil packs as they're very common and available here) which have the ignition driver built in and only require a 5v pulse from the ECU to trigger them. They are best driven by a buffer chip though.

I make a mod board to achieve this with minimal wiring, I'm not sure what the P&P to the US would be these days but I'd be happy to stick one in the post to you.

[elbekko]

On 7/31/2023 at 10:28 AM, FridgeFreezer said:

What Bowie is saying is that you can give MS2 any offtset to work with - it doesn't mind where the missing tooth is.

Not quite, unless MS2 minds it less than MS1. With @Escape's build, we noticed it didn't like offsets ATDC, and had to offset the firing order.

[James Kirk]

On 8/1/2023 at 1:16 AM, FridgeFreezer said:

These days I would not switch to EDIS as they are pretty old & hard to find now (Nige having bought almost all of them as far as I can tell!), I would switch to low-voltage triggered coil packs (Nige sells VAG coil packs as they're very common and available here) which have the ignition driver built in and only require a 5v pulse from the ECU to trigger them. They are best driven by a buffer chip though.

I make a mod board to achieve this with minimal wiring, I'm not sure what the P&P to the US would be these days but I'd be happy to stick one in the post to you.

I saw on another trend or whatever they're called VAG coil packs as a better alternative. On the MS2 hardware manual it shows a different circuit build for those but, if you have a board setup for that I would definitely purchase one. Not sure exactly how but, it can be achieved. 

Thank you,

James Kirk

[FridgeFreezer]

PM me and I'll get one sent out - although you probably need to be competent with a soldering iron to make the mods to fit it / undo what's already done to your board.

Yours is likely to have a setup like this inside (minus the burned components - this one was a repair!)

 

 

This is the VAG mod board, it does lift the CPU up by a few mm so you need to make sure it's fitted right before screwing the lid down

[James Kirk]

12 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

PM me and I'll get one sent out - although you probably need to be competent with a soldering iron to make the mods to fit it / undo what's already done to your board.

Yours is likely to have a setup like this inside (minus the burned components - this one was a repair!)

 

 

This is the VAG mod board, it does lift the CPU up by a few mm so you need to make sure it's fitted right before screwing the lid down

This is what mine looks like right now with the jimstim.