Wiper Motor woo's

[tuko]

I'll start this off with as much info as possible. 

Last fall while on a camping trip in Northern Sweden on the wilderness road "Vilmarksvägen", we drove through a downpour for about an hour. The day immediately after the Series starting having power issues, sometimes not enough power to start, with me resorting to coupling the house battery to get it to start. Jumping over a lot here, I had the wrong assumptions thinking it was the main battery, start motor, all the wires for the starting system plus grounds. If you assumed that I foolishly spent a bundle replacing the mentioned parts, you'll be correct.  One time earlier this year, the wiper switch began smoking, yes it was cooking itself. Quick thinking I killed the power to the Series then removed the switch. Seeing the crazy price for them I decided to rebuild it. Up to now it still works fine. 

Having the Defender I simply drove that, ignoring the Series and it's problem. But now I've decided that I have to get to the root of the problem.
Reading a few posts here, I decided to simply replace the wiper switch with an universal switch for a 2 speed motor. 

I replaced the wiper switch after work today but it began blowing fuses, 25Amp at that! So playing with the wires and 5 fuses later I've figured out that if the park wire is not used, I can operate the wiper motor on both speeds but I have to time my turning them off so that I park the wipers close to the orignal position. Strangely enough, reusing the original switch, the wipers are "on" in all positions (the park wire is connected). Remove the park wire then like the universal switch I can operate the wipers but have to time the off.

I'm of the opinion that the wiper motor is now pass it's usfulness and needs replacing.  Am I wrong?? 
Blowing 25Amp fuses when the wiring diagram shows that the wiper motor has just a 15Amp fuse, I'm thinking that the wiper motor is shorting out inside. I'm considering wiring in a relay tomorrow, but I don't see that resolving anything at this time. 

Searching on EBlag I found RTC3867 as a repalcement wiper motor. But there was one seller where a customer wrote that the wiper wotor was a single speed..... Right off the bat, casting doubt if this is the correct wiper motor, is it? 

Has anyone had a wiper motor begin shorting out causing slow battery drain like I'm having? I do have the dash completely torn out and I've began removing redundant wires, a tidy up is needed. 

 

Todd.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by tuko

[steve b]

Sounds like the park switch has melted enough to cause earthing issues . available as a replacement part.

Steve 

[FridgeFreezer]

I've struggled to find any switch for Series wipers that allows 2-speeds and washers and self parking, can't quite tell from the diagrams above but I suspect it's very easy to get it wired up in such a way that it just blows the fuse as the parking switch's job is to short-circuit the motor windings to ground when you turn the wipers off, so it's the point at which a fused live wire gets short-circuited to ground if your wiring is not quite as expected.

There are cheap Durite headlamp switches being sold as 2-speed wiper switches by people who should know better (and for a LOT of money) that almost-but-not-quite do the job but can't really do it without adding a changeover relay and being careful about how you wire it all up. It's what's fitted to the 109 right now and it p*** me off.

[tuko]

8 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I've struggled to find any switch for Series wipers that allows 2-speeds and washers and self parking, can't quite tell from the diagrams above but I suspect it's very easy to get it wired up in such a way that it just blows the fuse as the parking switch's job is to short-circuit the motor windings to ground when you turn the wipers off, so it's the point at which a fused live wire gets short-circuited to ground if your wiring is not quite as expected.

There are cheap Durite headlamp switches being sold as 2-speed wiper switches by people who should know better (and for a LOT of money) that almost-but-not-quite do the job but can't really do it without adding a changeover relay and being careful about how you wire it all up. It's what's fitted to the 109 right now and it p*** me off.

@FF,

thnks for explaining how the park works, I too find it a bit confusing. The switch that I have does not have wash so the wiring diagram is pretty clear to figure out. My son has a 1963 beetle and told me "his car has no park, don't worry about it just time your stop". I can do that. I ordered a new wiper motor this morning, it should give me the time to get out to the Series in between the rain to install a relay for the wipers. 

[Snagger]

My 109 was originally built with a two-speed system (and park, naturally).  It may just be the later examples that had it, as most seem only to have single speed, and I think they share the same switch as the Defender rear door wiper circuit.

It sounds to me like a park switch or wiring fault, not the motor itself.  I think if the motor was faulty, you’d blow fuses as soon as you switched it on, even with the park wiring disconnected.  It would still fit with the smoking dash switch - when the wipers are up the screen, the park switch is closed and will send power through the dash switch’s park side until the park switch opens, so there is still current in the dash switch from the park circuit whether the dash switch is on or off.  A short in the park switch will thus cause too much current through both switches, but the problem would be eliminated by park circuit, as you did.

It would still be worth opening the gear box on the motor to clean out any dried grease and rubbish and repack it with LM grease to be sure it can turn easily, and perhaps check and lubricate the spindles and cable while you’re at it to make sure the motor has the least mechanical resistance possible - as I understand it, motors draw most current when they have high mechanical loads, the reduction in back-EMF lowering their electrical resistance/impedance and generating more heat in their electrical circuit as a result.

[FridgeFreezer]

3 hours ago, Snagger said:

My 109 was originally built with a two-speed system (and park, naturally).  It may just be the later examples that had it, as most seem only to have single speed, and I think they share the same switch as the Defender rear door wiper circuit.

There seems to be 3 or 4 systems, and as far as I can tell almost all the actual wiper motors are 2-speed it's just the switch that varies.

Some seem to have a toggle switch with a separate push button for washers, some have the very common 1-speed + push-to-wash rotary switch which is also the Defender rear wiper switch, and (I think) CSW's got the rare & expensive rotary 2-speed switch with push-to-wash.

The Durite headlamp switch being sold on eBay as a 2-speed wiper switch can't do parking without more wiring & relays.

[Snagger]

3 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

There seems to be 3 or 4 systems, and as far as I can tell almost all the actual wiper motors are 2-speed it's just the switch that varies.

Some seem to have a toggle switch with a separate push button for washers, some have the very common 1-speed + push-to-wash rotary switch which is also the Defender rear wiper switch, and (I think) CSW's got the rare & expensive rotary 2-speed switch with push-to-wash.

Mine had the latter, but was just a big standard 2.25p Marine Blue/Limestone commercial hard top who's first ownership was the NRA.  Maybe by 82 they were all fitted with twin speed wipers and rear fog lamps, as mine was factory fit with that too, though no reverse light.

[FridgeFreezer]

Given Land Rover's reputation for fitting whatever combination of parts was laying about it's not surprising!

[tuko]

I some years ago changed over to a separate momentum button for the washer function but retained the original switch. Don't remember why. 

As for the wiper motor, the rubber plug for the wires into the motor itself, is melted but externally there no damage to the wires.

I've seen on YouTube using a 5 pin relay and some fancy wiring that the universal wiper switch can park, so that is a possibility. 

[FridgeFreezer]

18 hours ago, tuko said:

I've seen on YouTube using a 5 pin relay and some fancy wiring that the universal wiper switch can park, so that is a possibility. 

With a changeover (5-pin) relay you can make almost any switch work with wipers.

The easiest answer is probably a Defender column switch TBH, if you're not a purist.

[FridgeFreezer]

Because I just happened across it on eBay, the not-quite-right lamp+horn switch being sold as a 2-speed + wash wiper switch is:

Quote

Headlight Switch & Horn for Massey Ferguson 285 290 298 550 560 565 575 Tractor

Technical Data:

Headlight & Horn Switch
4 functions: Parking, Traffic, Driving Beams and Horn
Mounting Hole Size: 1/2 Inch
Spade terminal
See Image for Wiring & Functions Diagram

Applications:

Case International IH
248, 258, 268, 385, 485, 485XL, 585, 585XL, 684, 685, 685XL, 785, 785XL, 885, 885XL, 1194, 1494, 1594, 1694, Hydro 84

David Brown
1190, 1290, 1390, 1490, 1690, 1690 Turbo, 1194, 1294, 1394, 1494, 1594, 1694

Landini
5830, 6030

Massey Ferguson
133, 135, 140, 145, 148, 152, 155, 158, 165, 168, 175, 178, 185, 188, 230, 235, 240, 245, 250, 255, 260, 265, 275, 285, 290, 298, 550, 560, 565, 575, 590, 592, 595
Industrial
20D, 20F, 30E, 30H, 40E, 50, 50D, 50F, 50H, 50HX, 60H, 60HX

Part Number: 80165

As seen here:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394879795232

And a hundred other eBay sellers for under a tenner including postage.

 

[tuko]

On 11/19/2023 at 1:29 AM, FridgeFreezer said:

Because I just happened across it on eBay, the not-quite-right lamp+horn switch being sold as a 2-speed + wash wiper switch is:

As seen here:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394879795232

And a hundred other eBay sellers for under a tenner including postage.

 

If my military light switch dies I could use this as it's replacement. As a matter of fact it would be alright in the series to.

Thanks FF. 

[tuko]

It sucks that the sun goes down the same time I finish work, finally today I was out with the series to fix the wipers and shorting that I have been having with them.

Replaced the wiper motor, replaced the switch with the universal one I have from eBay. 

Using the above diagram I wired in a 5 pin relay and everything works including "park".

The wipers now seem to have a bit more life in them compared to the old ones and if I can say that with a 1980 Series. 

Also, it starts far more better than previously. 

Todd.