My Hydraulic winch

[Paul Humphreys]

Well as some of you will remember its a Superwinch 525 winch, hydraulic driven. Well its never have the power to pull the 110 out. I have got it down to a drive motor problem. So wheres the best place to get a new one?

Also the oil looks odd (could be water in it?) I plan to change the oil asap before I get a new motor or at the same time. but its been tested and dose the needed 2500psi. But could the poor oil cause the drive motor not to drive right?

Paul

[madmatt]

Well as some of you will remember its a Superwinch 525 winch, hydraulic driven. Well its never have the power to pull the 110 out. I have got it down to a drive motor problem. So wheres the best place to get a new one?

Also the oil looks odd (could be water in it?) I plan to change the oil asap before I get a new motor or at the same time. but its been tested and dose the needed 2500psi. But could the poor oil cause the drive motor not to drive right?

Paul

Paul sounds like you need to change the oil may be worth getting a hydraulic engineer to flow test the system and see what the relief valves are doing (the flowmeter can load the circuit) Is it ex Utility??? Could well have had reliefs turned down to down rate the winch. Does sound like you would have to change the oil and any filters before you can find a willing engineer.

As for a new pump, I would guess PG winches is a good start but I bet it won't be cheap, failing that dig out the yellow pages and look for hydraulic suppliers.

Good Luck

Matt

[Paul Humphreys]

Thanks Matt, I was quoted a while ago about £150 for a motor. I dont mind as long as I get the winch working. I will get the filter out tomorrow and get a new one and new oil. Refit the motor and test it again. But I think its the motor as it will pull anout 8" then the shaft from the motor stalls. I know thios as Richard from Mill Services had his head under it while I used the winch . But yes its an Ex-southern electricy board 110. But its also an auto, so maybe it could be the auto not helping. PG Winches can help if its the winch, but not with the motor. I need to get a new cable from them when its all working.

Paul

[pugwash]

hey Paul,

it's really not going to be the auto box, unless the car doesn't actually drive. My hydrualic pump takes 72lb/ft at max torque and flow- your car can easily supply that at just about any rev range (unless you have a very old 2.25 maybe)

make a few phonecalls to your local hydraulic gus- one of them will have experience of fitting or repairing hydraulic winches for local utility companies. My local branch of rotec fits superwinch kit to all LRs. If you want someone who knows what they're talking about then phone richard Renfree at Rotec in Taunton (01823 348900), he is extremely helpful and can supply any bit you might need!

[Paul Humphreys]

hey Paul,

it's really not going to be the auto box, unless the car doesn't actually drive. My hydrualic pump takes 72lb/ft at max torque and flow- your car can easily supply that at just about any rev range (unless you have a very old 2.25 maybe)

make a few phonecalls to your local hydraulic gus- one of them will have experience of fitting or repairing hydraulic winches for local utility companies. My local branch of rotec fits superwinch kit to all LRs. If you want someone who knows what they're talking about then phone richard Renfree at Rotec in Taunton (01823 348900), he is extremely helpful and can supply any bit you might need!

Thanks.

Wel looks like someone was given the wrong oil to top it up last time ME!!! The oil looked ok when I got it and I asked at an "specailist" for some oil to top it up and it looks like I used the wrong stuff!! Just took the filter out and the oil was full to the top and not going through the filter. So 25l of new oil and a filter tomorrow (filter has a date stame of 1989 on it). I will refit the motor and try again before getting a new motor. So it looks like I will have to drain all the pipes to change all the oil . But as I said, its not worked since I have had it (12 months) I have done lots of other thing and keep going out every weekend it in. But I think its time I got it fixed.

I also have some nice new Gwyn Lewis front turrets to fit, the ones with the built in spring relocators

Paul

[Paul Humphreys]

I have changed the oil, flushed the system and changed the filter. Still not working. So it looks like the winch now It will pull about 6-8 inches then stall. Dose anyone know how to up the stall rate?

Paul

[madmatt]

I have changed the oil, flushed the system and changed the filter. Still not working. So it looks like the winch now It will pull about 6-8 inches then stall. Dose anyone know how to up the stall rate?

Paul

Chance's are that the winch circuit will have a PRV or pressure relief valve this will blow at a given pressure returning the oil to tank rather than flowing to winch motor. Now the only real safe way to up this is to find out the what the relief valve should be set up to I bet superwingh or PG would be able to enlighten you. Then it needs a hydraulic engineer with a flow meter who can tell you what the PRV is blowing at now which will then mean you'll know if to up it or not. It would be a good idea to alter the prv while the flow meter is in the circuit so you can check it blows as it should.

No doubt some body will come along saying you can count turns on the prv adjusting screw but I wouldn't yes it may save a few quid from flow testing but hydraulics can be lethal if set up incorrectly.

Good luck

Matt

[Paul Humphreys]

The PRV is set to 2500psi and its doing 2500psi.

But I still think now I have tried other things its the winch, as it might have been down rated to pull cables? I have tried PG winches and no joy. It might be time to call a specialist?

Paul

[madmatt]

The PRV is set to 2500psi and its doing 2500psi.

But I still think now I have tried other things its the winch, as it might have been down rated to pull cables? I have tried PG winches and no joy. It might be time to call a specialist?

Paul

I think so paul, 2500psi sounds reasonable for a hydraulic winch of that nature. I'm not totally familiar with your model winch but most hydraulic winchs are gearbox ox drum and motor. there is nothing to down rate inside them. The overload protection will be the prv, and I'm fairly sure thats what they would down rate.

Does your truck hjust have a hydraulic circuit for the winch or does it have the auxilary hyd circuit for hydraulic tools? Do you operate the winch from a wing mounted spool valve??

Matt

[Paul Humphreys]

PM me a phone number and I will give you call.

But its got the spool/control block on the inner wing and the control leaver on the dash! Theres no power tool points on it.

Paul

[madmatt]

pm sent

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

2500 PSI is correct for that winch

May I dare ask how you know that it is set coreectly ?

I would also suggest you plumb in the line a t piece at winch end and see if it equally show 2500psi when it stalls.

I think this sounds susp like a pressure setting issue.

Can you also starting at the tank do the this pipe is connecvted to this bit and then eventually end up back at the return on the tank, just to be sure its all plumbed up right.

Start at the basics and work through

From memory you'll want EP32 Hyd oil

Nige

[Paul Humphreys]

2500 PSI is correct for that winch

May I dare ask how you know that it is set coreectly ?

I would also suggest you plumb in the line a t piece at winch end and see if it equally show 2500psi when it stalls.

I think this sounds susp like a pressure setting issue.

Can you also starting at the tank do the this pipe is connecvted to this bit and then eventually end up back at the return on the tank, just to be sure its all plumbed up right.

Start at the basics and work through

From memory you'll want EP32 Hyd oil

Nige

I know its 2500psi as I have had it tested, but thats all I know. It was tested at the drive motor by a hydraulics place, after talking to you about it a while ago. I have not tested it on all pipes, but maybe that is what needs doing.

I have put new EP32 oil in along with new filter after flushing the system.

Paul

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Ok

This may help

You should have

BIG F Off Pipe from tank, this goes down and INTO the PTO Pumo.

FROM the other side of the pump a pipe going off to the spool block

On the spool block 2 pipes you are looking for,

the first prob in the side entry with an arrow and also sometimes a P for Pump, the pipe from the PTO should go on here and the arrow shows flow ie INTO Spool block

Opposite this pipe on the other side should be a stamp marked T, this should then have a pipe coming BACK to the tank (return)

.....Back to the spool block......

There should be 4 pipe unions underneath, with the side in and side out, look for front to rear pipes,

ie

............F1 F2

............o...o

P -->o............o T

............o...o

............R1 R2

ONE set of the front rear unions should be connected to the winch motor, which way around doesn't matter, wrong and winch runs wrong way

The other two front and rears should be either blanked off or connected to the Aux take off

Possibly 1 other pipe, sluighty smaller pipe, running from under the spool vlave to the throttle with a canister thingy attched to the end, this is a stepper unit to bring the revs up

All the pipe work with the exception of the Tank to pump and the steeper should all be 1/2 BSP

Print this off, and have a VERY Close inspection then get back to me

This is one of those start at the beginning check the basis and work through jobs...............

Nige

[Paul Humphreys]

Thanks Nige I will try to give it a go later this week.

I have a picture of my spool block.

Paul

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Thats an Early unit !

Looks like a single acting Unit

ie you JUST have the one lever ?

Most (later) have two levers, the 1st a On/Off/On (winch) the second a On/Off which is for aux / cherry picker unit flow

anyway

Bottom two I think should be in to and from winch motor pipes ?

Small outlet the steeper unit ?

Is that Big union above the others facing out the feed from the PTO pump after the feed to the pump from the tank, and what is the one on the "top" fed to or from pump tank - and any markings ?????

That Big one above the 2 1/2 bsps is Bigger than I would exopect to see, are the pipes in and out of the PTO the smae size ?

Re the stepper you can just blank this off for the mo, one less thing it could be. What this does is as you operate the spool lever and the revs maybe drop as the load increases it 2Ups" the revs, as such complex and I would (for the mo) blank it off.

Nige

[Paul Humphreys]

AFAIK It was fitted when new.

I think its a single acting unit, well flows in/out.

Yes just the one leaver on the dash, the red outer cable.

All the pipes went back where I took them off. As for the small pipe, that goes down to the drive motor. All the other motors I have seen only have 2 pipes.

Not sure what pipes are fore without looking again, but I will tomorrow.

Yes the ones in/out of the pto are the same size. The one to the top right has the PRV just to the side of it, you can just see it in the picture.

I had to remove it to change the PAS box a few weeks ago.

Paul

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

AFAIK It was fitted when new.

I think its a single acting unit, well flows in/out.

Yes just the one leaver on the dash, the red outer cable.

All the pipes went back where I took them off. As for the small pipe, that goes down to the drive motor. All the other motors I have seen only have 2 pipes.

Not sure what pipes are fore without looking again, but I will tomorrow.

Yes the ones in/out of the pto are the same size. The one to the top right has the PRV just to the side of it, you can just see it in the picture.

I had to remove it to change the PAS box a few weeks ago.

Paul

Is there not a threaded hole on the other side of the plate where the in / out ports are ?

If so this can have a manula lever threaded into it and will then operate the on / off / on as oppossed to the bowden cably think on the end of the red cable

I am wondering if the bowden cable is streched / incorrectely set so its only part movement, if the spool block has a threaded valve exit srew in a rod (mine was 10mm your will be metric ) and try that

The red clable bowden unit was designed so that the operator can use from inside the cab, they can often cuase probs, either answer re the bolt hole on the other side if you know or have a peek and advise (and if there is a flat "mounting plate" covering the sppol block then remove and look at the spool block itself...)

when you say the small one goes to the motor do you mean the motor just behind the winch itself ????????/ or to a sepearte cylinder thingy (coke can size - tad smaller maybe) and is then connected to the throttle area ??

nige

[Paul Humphreys]

Is there not a threaded hole on the other side of the plate where the in / out ports are ?

Not sure I will have it off again and remove the mounting plate.

If so this can have a manula lever threaded into it and will then operate the on / off / on as oppossed to the bowden cably think on the end of the red cable

There is a place for another leaver, I have seen one fitted before but not on mine. It was on a pic of one Les Block had for sale.

I am wondering if the bowden cable is streched / incorrectely set so its only part movement, if the spool block has a threaded valve exit srew in a rod (mine was 10mm your will be metric ) and try that

You have said this to me before, but it seems to move the same amount both ways.

The red clable bowden unit was designed so that the operator can use from inside the cab, they can often cuase probs, either answer re the bolt hole on the other side if you know or have a peek and advise (and if there is a flat "mounting plate" covering the sppol block then remove and look at the spool block itself...)

As above I will take it all off and take a look and pictures tomorrow night, as long as I have time.

when you say the small one goes to the motor do you mean the motor just behind the winch itself ????????/ or to a sepearte cylinder thingy (coke can size - tad smaller maybe) and is then connected to the throttle area ??

nige

Yes it goes from/to the winch drive motor, the one on the end of the short shaft. No hydraulic throttle control. as far as I can remember its stright to the motor as I have tried reving it myself.

Paul

[Paul Humphreys]

Picture of the one les had for sale.

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopi...mp;hl=hydraulic

Paul

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Yes it goes from/tp the winch drive motor, the one on the end of the short shaft. No hydraulic throttle control. as far as I can remember its stright to the motor as I have tried reving it myself.

Paul

Now that is VERY odd, never seen that or know of it.

Never seem a 3rd connector on the motor either, but it could be right, HTF it works is beyond me.

I have some tech stuff somewhere I'll have a dig about you have a lookie at the other bits

Nige

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Picture of the one les had for sale.

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopi...mp;hl=hydraulic

Paul

Yep

If you look at Les pic, the "Lever" is in the wrong hole, there is a vertical hole just in front of the unit, the lever would then be upright.

On yours I would expect that to be somewhere in the centre of the unit top face, not as with Les unit on the front

Its just another type / style of spool block

Nige

[Paul Humphreys]

I will post back as soon as I have had another look.

Paul

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

One more thought

Basically once we have the pipes and lever Q sorted we need to find where in the system the fault lies.

1. Get a Male to Female (I guess) T piece and a guage from a Hydro spoecialists prob 1/2 BSP M to 1/2BSP Female and then a T off to fit to the guage - capable of showing 2500psi

2. Fit this unit BETWEEN the pipe into the motor at the winch end and the motor, run up pull lever see what guages reads - if you get 2500 and the winch has stopper then you have pressure and flow right up to the motor, if not then the fault would seem to be further back

3. Also (with the above fitted) disconnect the winch and see what happens - ie if motor now turns then motor is free, and it could then be internally inside the winch. The resistance on the motor is incremenbtal to the pull from the winch, so this would be a test to conmpare say "respooling" cable back on - stalling out and then redoing with the winch disconnected the drive ratio is HUGE ie rotations of shfat to one revolution of drum winch

4. Does the winch trip out at all when respooling the cable back on, or only when under use / load in which case scrub 3

Sorry 14 hours day and I am knacked !

1 and 2 are defibately useful for moving forward, as we can use elsewhere in the system to test

Nige

[steve b]

Been talking winchs to lots of different people lately and some has told me of a H14 mech (i think) that wore out the worm & worm wheel -because it was filled in the gearcase with EP90- to the point where it self locked when powered in...might be worth a look inside ? you could also take the motor off the winch & run it up to see if it runs ok (rotationally , not under load obviously)?

.....I never realised phosphor-bronze could be attacked by ep 90......will be freeing off the drain on mine & looking for the right oil-mines a fairey mech winch powered hydraulically so if anyone knows the correct oil?

Steveb