RTV trial classes.

[discoabuser]

Although I have read the Green book over and over,I cant determine what moves SOME vehicle's from standard classes to modified classes.

My discovery for example is in class 5 (std) an I have spoken to others at events who gave various reasons why their discovery was in class 11 (modified).One driver said it was because he had changed his bumpers,but section B.13.1 says 'Heavy duty bumpers and bumpers associated with winch installations are permitted provided they are no smaller or weaker than the originals.'

I think something that has the suspension lifted should be classed as modified,but from what I understand only if it has dislocation cones fitted does it become modified.

I would like to stay in class 5 (std) but if I could do more to my car,I would.

[welshlaner2]

Rules rules rules by the way you are writing then i assume you are a trailer and in the ALRC

Different clubs seem not to be consisant with them i've had similar problems with "green book" and the organisers at certain events, so much so don't complete now instead just do it as a bit of fun

is there a forum just for trialers, bit of serious descission is needed

[s2hotdog]

I compete in trials at a local club

As I have non standard handbrake (X-engineering) its classed as non standard

However as its a small club they tend to amalgamate all 90's and RR

I have now also put a winch on the front of my 90 with a non-standard bumper 9 (slightly shorter), I don't think it will matter to much in my club, however I would have an advantage

if I was competing in the nationals I doubt if I would be allowed to enter without extending bumper to its original lenght

Cheers

Steve

[Roverdrive]

You say that if you could do mre to your car you would. Careful preparation will take you a long way. I tend to be amalgamated with 90s as there aren't enough class 5 motors, but I can still win the class. Too few people pay attention to vehicle set up. Make sure you are getting full lock in both directions. Wheels should be set parallel, or for more lock toeing in slightly, but you get more tyre wear that way. Mine are set parallel to just rub the radius arms ( MOT failure, so set it back !). Fit new springs. Go for 2" over as it will give you a bit more lift while still retaining reasonable handling on the road. MAke sure the dampers are in good condition, and are suitable for the increased travel. Make sure the brake hoses are not stretched.

Add a decent set of tyres and you will go a long way.

Most importantly, make the most of waht you have. Don't follow the sheep in a 90. You can take a different route if necessary due to the extended wheelbase and take a shunt to get round.

Most importantly for the national, bring some beer tokens, treat it as a big trial not a "National" and have fun!

[discoabuser]

'make the most of what you have got'

That is my EXACT philosophy.

Posts I see on various forums make me smile when I read 'I have bought a discovery,which is the best/biggest lift/tyres/spotlights I can fit.

Perhaps what I should have put was,'I want to do as much as I can to my disco but stay in the standard class'

I have done fine already with my standard car with colway 205 remoulds,I really believe it is the car not the driver,I have sailed through parts where V8 90's failed miserably.

[discoabuser]

R.E bring beer tokens.

Sorry not to be a sheep but I dont drink now,gave it up a while back.

[Roverdrive]

Good man

You are still more than welcome. We need someone with a steady hand to take the photos, and tell us the following morning where the black eye came from!

[300bhp/ton]

Although I have read the Green book over and over,I cant determine what moves SOME vehicle's from standard classes to modified classes.

The rules are written as they are written but different people will interpret them differently.

If you want to remain in the standard class then essentially no alterations from stock are permitted.

But the question is why do you want to remain in the standard class if you want to modify?

Also your local club must be massive to cater for all the classes, we have a pretty strong local club but on RTV's we have two classes:

-leaf

-coil

And you just have to fit into one of those.

The only time I can think all the classes matter is at the ALRC Nationals.

I guess if you feel strong enough that you are still standard class then you could argue your case but you have to decide if its worth it or not.

My discovery for example is in class 5 (std) an I have spoken to others at events who gave various reasons why their discovery was in class 11 (modified).One driver said it was because he had changed his bumpers,but section B.13.1 says 'Heavy duty bumpers and bumpers associated with winch installations are permitted provided they are no smaller or weaker than the originals.'

Many aftermarket bumpers for the Discovery are smaller or have different approach angles, so in that case it gives a comnpetitive advantage hence some end up in the modified class.

I think something that has the suspension lifted should be classed as modified,but from what I understand only if it has dislocation cones fitted does it become modified.

I would like to stay in class 5 (std) but if I could do more to my car,I would

I'm not sure dislocation cones are allowed in any class under the ALRC regs.

To be honest I personally believe that the ALRC are so far up their own arses that they ruin Land Rovering.

I know they are trying to make it a level playing field and to stop the person with the most money winning simply because of having bought the most capable setup but they are victims of their own stupid selfs. The stop people running simple suspension and body mods so that the bigger vehicles are no longer competative. So from preventing someone spending £800 on suspension you are now forced to spend £5000 on build a 80" coiler special, espcially if you want to compete in CCV events.

If you want to compete in ALRC events there is little you can do with your Discovery to really make any odds.

NOT ALLOWED:

-most after market suspension setups

-most aftermarket bumpers

-wheel spacers

-cranked trailing arms

-dislocation cones

-wide wheels and tyres (because off the limited offset allowed)

-big tyres (33" max)

-exhausts with less silencers than stock

-15" rims (Discovery's came on 16's so you have to pay more for 16's than 15's for the same affect)

Technically as the rules are written you aren't even allowed an uprated intercooler on a TDI as this is not stated as permitted and the increase in HP wouldl give you a competative advantage under certain circumstances.

So to keep costs down the ARC in their wisdom do allow you to take a RR or Discovery and:

-Chop it down to 80"

-Have a custom tubular frame/bulkhead

-Custom Series 1 a-like body work

-and end up wioth something which really isn't Land Rover or even look like one.

If you want to modify I suggest you look at joining the AWDC or another club which is not as annal as the ALRC.

[discoabuser]

'Exhausts with less silencers than stock'

I had better get a back box then!I cut it off and it now exits at the side.

BUT I cant find in the new book about silencers,I read it in the last book but the latest one just says 'the exhaust system may be modified'

[Roverdrive]

Not true about the exhaust.

You can modify it, but there is a Db limit. THINK that is only pertaining to comp safari motors, but if you are shattering windscreens in the scrutineering line, you will get a pull for a test.

Can't remember off hand what the Db limit is. Have a look at the ALRC web site.

[Roverdrive]

You can fit aftermarket springs. If leaf springs they must have two leaves wrapped around the pins.

No dislocation cones, no cranked radius arms, no drilled radius arms.

As regards the head up arse attitude, can't argue with that, but there are plenty of those sort of people in any organisation. Don't get me started on Health and Safety " professionals". No offence to those who actually use common sense. B)

[300bhp/ton]

Not true about the exhaust.

You can modify it, but there is a Db limit. THINK that is only pertaining to comp safari motors, but if you are shattering windscreens in the scrutineering line, you will get a pull for a test.

Can't remember off hand what the Db limit is. Have a look at the ALRC web site.

Looks like its another wording change from last year, although in this case for the better as long as you didn't follow last years regs when getting a new exhaust.

Old wording:

B.3 EXHAUST SYSTEM.

B.3.1. The exhaust system may be modified but must not pass through the driver / passenger compartment. The original number of silencers must be retained. Noise levels shall be kept to MSA reg. E.12.17. specifications.

New wording:

B.4. EXHAUST SYSTEM.

B.4.1. The exhaust system may be modified.

[300bhp/ton]

You can fit aftermarket springs.

Yes but not most after market suspension setups on sale. Not for coil sprung setups anyhow.

If leaf springs they must have two leaves wrapped around the pins.

No dislocation cones, no cranked radius arms, no drilled radius arms.

This is where I personally feel the bods at the ALRC have no concept of how the Land Rover suspension setup works.

If you read the ALRC hand book they bark on about how in the modified class you can gain a lot more axle articulation, well to acheive this on a coiler you really need to add longer shocks which are permissable, however this leaves a problem as the wheel can drop further a standard spring is no longer a suitable length to remain retained, there are 3 options:

1. Run longer springs so that at maximum articulation the spring remains seated top and bottom, however the spring will need to be very soft so that it can still compress. This can lead to very poor on road handling.

2. Running a slightly longer spring and using heavy duty spring retainers (not so common in the UK bu in Australia and the Us it is) however these setups actually stretch the spring under acrticulation which is not good for the spring and places MASSIVE strain and loads on the upper seat pearch.

3. Run standard length springs offering the best road holding and ride and use dislocation cones to deliberatly allow the spring to dislocate and reseat safely.

EVERY setup can acheive pretty much the same off road ability there is no real competative advantage with anyone approach, so not allowing dislocation cones just means it narrows down choice maxing more expensive and means that most will have to end up with a compromosed setup and one which isn't as road friendly.

Same goes for caster corrected front radius arms, they are they to restore caster making the vehicle nicer and safer on the road NOT to offer any off road advantage so people shouldn't be shunned because they want to run them.

Cranked trailing arms are more debatable, but it goes back to the cost aspect. A set of cranked arms cost what £120 for a small gain in articulation compared to the £0000's the ARLC would prefer you to spend in building a special. It just makes no sense at all.........

[discoabuser]

Not true about the exhaust.

You can modify it, but there is a Db limit. THINK that is only pertaining to comp safari motors, but if you are shattering windscreens in the scrutineering line, you will get a pull for a test.

Can't remember off hand what the Db limit is. Have a look at the ALRC web site.

Seems like I might be OK then because there is hardly any difference with the back box off.

[Boothy]

I think its 99dB at 1 metre from the tailpipe running at two thirds of the engines maximum revs and must have at least the same amount of silences as manufactured, mine 4.6 V8 was 109dB at tickover, end of event, earbleeder but nice.

Add jubilee clips to stop suspension springs detaching for the day and you will pass scrutineering if dislocators are fitted.

Make sure bumpers don't offer any advantage over standard, length and height and width etc, and I think if they're on a 90 etc they have got to be 3" deep and parallel to the body, check regs, i've been measured a few times with alternative bumpers.

Total offset of wheel must not exceed 4" or 100mm from outer edge of hub, most do, but some Mach 5's don't, they had a considerable debate on mine last year and told me they were only just 4 inches I was lucky, its funny i had them made at four inches wasn't that lucky, but only just 4 inches.

But don't forget to smile, you're there to have fun.

Good luck

[welshlaner2]

Just been out and measured me truck, seen the other thread, well it would not pass and i'am not going to bother to amend it. Its got a 4 " lift nice wide tyres and i like it, it does the job, got a winch too.

So thanks to all those supid rules decided to give it a miss and organise something else, ther critics are right the ALRC are just destroying there own hobby, any one with an ordinary disco would not even risk some of the courses i've seen yet attempts to mininise damage is banned under the rules

[4.6v8lwt]

Without reading all the regs and putting them in context you are making things a lot more complicated than they are. You need to read the appropriate regulations that are for the type of event you are doing. Its alright just quoting a odd paragraph from one regulation but if you dont read the whole thing it is just nonsense. The regulations do vary from RTV to CCV and there are classes that cover all vehicles,but because it is a system that runs from standard to modified the rules will not suit everyone. With every type of motorsport there are rules and to play you have to abide by them, but there will always be someone who wants to push the boundries or cheat to try and win as they can not do it on ability alone. There are other good offroad motorsports associations NORC AWDC who allow differant things if thats what you want go and play with them (just get a second mortgage) they are the big boys and spend lots to compete. Or if you want follow the basic rules and you can start with a standard land rover (plus return spring and good tow points) and compete. Dont just read the posts and dismiss the ALRC National or any of the clubs go and have a look and make your own mind up, it may be what you want, or not but at least you have made your own mind up and not just followed the crowd.

[Bomag]

ALRC rules are quirkey, they dont allow many engine changes to stay within the standard rules, but they do if your vehicle is a V890, you can change from the 3.5 upto the 4.6!!

Picking up my new handbook at the Nationals as mine is a few years old.

[Mark]

As I have non standard handbrake (X-engineering) its classed as non standard

As it happens, Si has had the X-brake approved by the ARC as a safetly improvement and not a modification, so running one shouldn't put you into a modified class.

Mark

[welshlaner2]

...... Or if you want follow the basic rules and you can start with a standard land rover (plus return spring and good tow points) and compete. Dont just read the posts and dismiss the ALRC National or any of the clubs go and have a look and make your own mind up, it may be what you want, or not but at least you have made your own mind up and not just followed the crowd.

Thats how i started basic landy, 2 recovery points and a return spring, recent MOT & insurance, then found did'nt have the right seat belts, the "wrong roll bar", the bumper was bent, my kid higher than me could sit with us cause of H&S, the floor did'nt have a rubber seal. the handbrake seal had a hole in, the springs looked old, too long travel on the brake and various other points.

Got my money back but it ws a waste of a day, tired a few other ARC clubs and did a few trails but varoius problems over membership cards was the family covered or not etc, still after a few goes still could not get the truck to there varing standards, but i did get to have a go, often though it was a ploy to get marshalls as they were always short.

Did a bit of marshalling but i'am not suited as a spector, family found the bad language, bad tempers of losing comptetiors, restrictions on photographs, restrictions on movement, lack of site information (ie where it is.) a complete pain in the a**

Also found the booking rules not clear some required driving licence, different prices quoted, timing changed at last minute one club wanted me to do a tyro although i booked a RTV, camping restrictions, then finally found events canceled on 2 occasions, then started laning and never looked back.

[Mr Ed]

As it happens, Si has had the X-brake approved by the ARC as a safetly improvement and not a modification, so running one shouldn't put you into a modified class.

Mark

As the current Chairman of the Hants and Berks Land Rover Owners (ALRC affiliated) I have been battling with the ALRC for clarity on their regulations and more latitude to allow my members to take advantage of market add ons etc that would take them out of standard class and even beyond modified class. It is a bit like banging you head against a brick wall whilst running through treacle.

All I can add is that if you want to compete in a ALRC event then comply to what they have regulated. The ALRC are trying to keep within the Land Rover 'mark and identity.'

Last year I asked the members of HBLRO if they had comment on the proposed new ALRC regulations and if there were other issues that they would like incorporated. Bearing in mind I do receive a lot of comment about how restrictive the regs are for after market add ons. I had no response..........

What is strange is that the ALRC regulations do not even accept some ' standard' Landies, for example they to not recognize the 100" that was made at one stage. They also do not recognize the latest breed of engines eg V6 diesel etc.

Having said all that I know that the Chairman of the ALRC and the Head of Scruitineering were at the MNike Wolfe Challenge we ran last weekend and were spotting some of the modifications made to competitors vehicles. Many of these mods go beyond the ALRC Grren Book. The word I hear was that they were prehaps going to open the debate on non standard bumpers etc. Why because there may be some recognition that this is what land Rover owners and tgherefore their members want to do.

Mr Ed

[Top90]

Having said all that I know that the Chairman of the ALRC and the Head of Scruitineering were at the MNike Wolfe Challenge we ran last weekend and were spotting some of the modifications made to competitors vehicles. Many of these mods go beyond the ALRC Grren Book. The word I hear was that they were prehaps going to open the debate on non standard bumpers etc. Why because there may be some recognition that this is what land Rover owners and tgherefore their members want to do.

Mr Ed

I feel that a more open policy would encourage more entrants to events.

Did an event with the Essex club a few years ago. To be fair to them I couldn't win a trophy or get points, but I was allowed to compete to see if I liked it and it was a good day out.

They particularly didn't like the dislocating suspension.

RIch

[welshlaner2]

I feel that a more open policy would encourage more entrants to events.

Did an event with the Essex club a few years ago. To be fair to them I couldn't win a trophy or get points, but I was allowed to compete to see if I liked it and it was a good day out.

They particularly didn't like the dislocating suspension.

RIch

That happened to me which was fair enough really only wanted the experance and ****** the points, but some clubs not as willing

its seems a bent bumper (Series front end bent up) which past an mot was considered and avantage so prevented from compteteing, so would you be prevented from finshing if you did it on a trail.

[101nut]

That happened to me which was fair enough really only wanted the experance and ****** the points, but some clubs not as willing

its seems a bent bumper (Series front end bent up) which past an mot was considered and avantage so prevented from compteteing, so would you be prevented from finshing if you did it on a trail.

As an ex committee member of Breckland LRC (ALRC) I've been round and round the block on some of these arguments and I think I'm still going.

These are generally my views and not necessarily the Club's but here goes.

1) If you don't like the rules don't compete. Any sport has regulations which must be enforced. Two options - join the ALRC and change the rules from within or join another organisation.

2) Any Club running an event with rules (ALRC, MSA and their own supplementary regs) must enforce those rules else their permit for the event and thus their insurance may be deemed invalid. Any such Club running under a closed permit and insurance offered by the ALRC/MSA and knowingly allowing non-conformant vehicles to run is risking both its and its organisers' financial necks, whether simply for 'experience' or not.

3) Scrutineering has two parts 1)eligibility and 2)safety but only for that event. The MOT deals with neither so is almost irrelevant except as a guide.

4) Any complaints about behaviour, language or whatever cannot be generalised and I would take exception to tarring BLRC or many other clubs with such a brush.

5) Without doubt every Club has its own group of competitive drivers and those who are there for a day out. Decide which group you're in then go do it. If you're not competitive you won't be spending stupid money on modifications, otherwise you probably will ... accept that and have the day out you expect but don't complain when other don't take it seriously or somebody was 'point grabbing'. Personally I compete against myself - I know what I'm capable of and if I exceed my expectations I'm happy, if I muck it up I'm not ... easy.

6) Non standard parts are a moot point. When is a non-standard part equivalent to a standard part? The original ethos of the ARC was a level playing field without money being thrown at the problem. This has continued and to some extent has become too tight with too many historical indiosyncracies. The ALRC will no doubt address this in due course however don't slam the rules just because they are there without knowing why. For instance cranked radius arms were banned long before they were available as an aftermarket part in suspension kits. Yes they now help those with 3" lifts on the road but they used to be cut-and-shut parts which were potentially dangerous. Why should bumpers be of the same size and strength at the originals? Simply because of people cheating (yes) by having weakened bumper-ends which folded up on section one when the driver 'accidentally' ran into a bank thus giving a significant advantage.

If you want to do it then do it, if you don't then do the other thing but whatever you do don't expect to take a tank with Metro body to a mini-metro race and expect it to pass scrutineering just because you spent thousands on it ...

AndyG

[Ozyboy]

Some interesting comments on this subject especially from Mr Ed, as a long time entrant of RTV's CCV's and Time Trials, with the ARC. I guess my view is generally i agree with the ARC principle, but i do still think they need to look at what is allowed, and what isn't.

If you want to play at NATIONAL level, you must comply, within the rules, or should i say max out in terms of modifications the class that your in.

Now i hear many people who compete at RTV and CCV that are at club level and they get a dozen or so competitors at. At a national you can get 250 to pitch against. To me this is a good thing.

On a cost reflection, i have a 88 series 1 TDI coiler, so for me to migrate to challenge events i need 2 x 8274's and manufacture suitable mountings, and 2 x lockers, oh, and plasma, etc etc.

Having added all that ironwork in ascociation with winches etc, makes the motor so heavy it'll need the winches to get anywhere...... Plus the lockers are not allowed in ARC.

Lets not forget if you build a motor to meet ARC regs, you can pretty much compete in anything else, AWDC etc. I don't believe you can be competative at challenge stuff and competative at CCV level with the same motor. (Happy to be proved wrong;-)

let the debate continue.

Ozy