V8 parts question

[MarkieB]

So people seem to agree that the original parts for distributor cap, rotor arm, HT leads are much better for a fatter spark than the pattern parts; is there a good source for original parts at lower-than-LR prices? Are RTC3197,STC1857 the parts numbers for older engines too? Craddocks shows a STC8368 distributor cap [probably pattern though], RTC3618 Rotor arm/ STC1857 for 'Electronic distributor', is that breakerless contacts? I think mine is the more traditional kind.

After looking carefully at my carbs, giving them a bit of a wipe, they're definitely Zenith [i think it said CD175]. The air intake involves the normal curved tubes from the carbs to an air box, although it looks very different to the air intake in the 1987 parts cat, the air box is a large oval box, dia. 2-3 times the dia. of the curved tubes; it looks as though there should be air filters on the box-end parts, of a kind of rounded oblong/flattened oval shape, would a kind soul happen to know the part number? Craddocks shows a 605191 although without pictures it's a bit of guesswork whether it's for the older engines.

Is there an electronic parts cat for the older V8 engines, would I be well advised to gradually modify it to a more modern V8 spec, what should I do?

[jules]

Go and buy a electronic ignition for a brackers yard

Look around for a EFI set and if your not happy to file you heads down a set of efi heads can be done for less than £200

[MarkieB]

Go and buy a electronic ignition for a brackers yard

Look around for a EFI set and if your not happy to file you heads down a set of efi heads can be done for less than £200

Breakers' yards in France are notoriously pricey, unless I try the 'net links to UK breakers, most of whom seem to think France is further than Australia ie they won't even consider posting here.

I'm really thinking of putting Megasquirt in in the longer term as a relative priority once I've got spare cash, only for the time being I should try to make sure there's a decent spark, the engine isn't sucking in grit; perhaps, were it possible, advance the spark on Lpg to avoid 'detonation' that I hear tell of that sounds worrying, hopefully with a component that would allow an unadvanced setting for petrol, plus would later integrate into Megasquirt thus saving me a few quid at that stage.

Not asking much am I? B)

you're saying change to electronic ignition + EFI though I suppose, good advice in the longer term. Looks as though I'll have to wade into a bit of that Megasquirt technical stuff, I seem to recall a difficulty making Lpg + EFI work on Megasquirt, or perhaps it was sequential injection Lpg [best for EFI as I understand] that it can't cope with.

[v8bertha]

Where's Fridge when you need him... he da'man for Megasquirt. B)

His posts always baffle me tho!

[MarkieB]

I wouldn't mind a lead on the distributor cap/ rotor arm/ HT leads / air filters either just in case the diesel gets cold start morning jitters in the very near future

[MarkieB]

found a K&N part number for the air filters at least, in case of need:

E-9098

[FridgeFreezer]

you're saying change to electronic ignition + EFI though I suppose, good advice in the longer term. Looks as though I'll have to wade into a bit of that Megasquirt technical stuff, I seem to recall a difficulty making Lpg + EFI work on Megasquirt, or perhaps it was sequential injection Lpg [best for EFI as I understand] that it can't cope with.

MegaSquirt can't (currently) do sequential injection, but you really don't need it - even cars with sequential injection use batch injection across most of the fuel map!

Why you don't need sequential injection

Although there is enough spare capacity in the new ECU's to do sequential if you REALLY REALLY must have it.

LPG and MegaSquirt is perfectly doable, since the MS-extra code has switchable dual spark/fuel tables you can have the right ignition map for both fuels. EDIS-8 is an easy and reliable ignition solution, and I'm sure Bill Shurvinton will happily post everything you need (including ready-built ECU's) to France.

The tricky thing is setting up the MS to run the fuelling for both fuels as well, which is not something I'm aware any other system can do anyway, most of them disconnect or "blind" the factory ECU on LPG and use a separate unit to control the LPG injectors.

With the new V3 MegaSquirt you gain a communications bus (CAN Bus for those who're interested) so you could use two networked ECU's, one for each fuel, but with only one set of sensors. But that'd just be showing off.

BTW before you rush out and buy K&N's, have a read of this: http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm

I wouldn't mind a lead on the distributor cap/ rotor arm/ HT leads / air filters either

Paddocks will sell you genuine parts, you've just got to make sure you ask for genuine NOT pattern. Same with most suppliers.

[MarkieB]

MegaSquirt can't (currently) do sequential injection, but you really don't need it - even cars with sequential injection use batch injection across most of the fuel map!

Why you don't need sequential injection

Although there is enough spare capacity in the new ECU's to do sequential if you REALLY REALLY must have it.

LPG and MegaSquirt is perfectly doable, since the MS-extra code has switchable dual spark/fuel tables you can have the right ignition map for both fuels. EDIS-8 is an easy and reliable ignition solution, and I'm sure Bill Shurvinton will happily post everything you need (including ready-built ECU's) to France.

The tricky thing is setting up the MS to run the fuelling for both fuels as well, which is not something I'm aware any other system can do anyway, most of them disconnect or "blind" the factory ECU on LPG and use a separate unit to control the LPG injectors.

With the new V3 MegaSquirt you gain a communications bus (CAN Bus for those who're interested) so you could use two networked ECU's, one for each fuel, but with only one set of sensors. But that'd just be showing off.

BTW before you rush out and buy K&N's, have a read of this: http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm

Paddocks will sell you genuine parts, you've just got to make sure you ask for genuine NOT pattern. Same with most suppliers.

Thank you yogi, we are not worthy

I think the business with sequential injection is as I remember it from a time of idle inquisitiveness into Megasquirt, I'm not perhaps as convinced as some of the inability of sequential injection to function as designed at all but idle speeds, although I understand the principle of increasing firing time from an injector needing to coincide with limited valve opening time, getting more critical as the engine speeds up. I'l probably be a 'really really' kind of person when I've got EFI+Megasquirt+whatever else B)

Fuel mapping sounds as though it's a project for the distant future, as indeed is EFI for me, although I'm keen to get working on the spark timing [even though the Megasquirt pages suggest, as a question of technical difficulty, doing it the other way round]. As far as I understand, there's no amp in my system as it stands, so the spark timing boxes that replace the amp may not be the ones for me [plus pricewise the spark amplification/advance module at £125 is getting on for the price of a Megasquirt system]. However, it looks as though RPI are well conversant with Rover V8's going as far back as 1968, so I'll see what they say.

As you casually say, EDIS-8, I think that involves a new distributor for me, or at least one from a breaker's [there are options for shipping, couriers I could book from here such as interparcel.com, it's simply that most of the web interfaces to the breakers ask for an address first, then once the breakers see 'France' they switch off ] then putting a sensor on the crankshaft! The whole engine could fall apart on me at that stage

Is the option of MS'n'S with a standard distributor [vacuum unplugged to 'lock' the distributor] workable as a stopgap until I get electronic distribution, then change without replacing the Megasquirt parts?

good insight into the air filter world there, too: As I understand it, filters such as K&N clog faster under serious dirt, there being a tradeoff between airflow/resistance to clogging; the airflow advantage is virtually useless given the parameters of most engines; the fact that they aren't paper may be an advantage for people who get their air filters wet [dangerous practice however you look at it ]

I wrote to Craddocks a while back although the impression I get is of the kind of necessary questions such as 'what part number is suitable for my engine' being seen as a bit of a waste of time.

I'll try writing to Paddocks then, it even looks as though they stock the K&N filters, although I'll stick with the standard item at 1/10 of the price! They similarly show 605191 as the only OEM air filter, then RTC3197 as the only distributor cap, although they've got an earlier rotor arm RTC6630 listed, does no-one else here own such an old V8? Shows how much you all abuse your vehicles

then a set of magnecor leads from the lowest bidder B)

[FridgeFreezer]

Thank you yogi, we are not worthy

Yogi? Isn't he a bear?

Sequential injection...

Let me put it this way - There has never been a sequentially injected Rover V8!

Fuel mapping sounds as though it's a project for the distant future, as indeed is EFI for me, although I'm keen to get working on the spark timing [even though the Megasquirt pages suggest, as a question of technical difficulty, doing it the other way round].

You shouldn't need to do any fuel mapping as I (and V8Bertha, and many other people) can e-mail you a working fuel map for a Rover V8 that will get you running straight away.

However, it looks as though RPI are well conversant with Rover V8's going as far back as 1968, so I'll see what they say.

They will say "You don't want that, buy one of our amplifiers"

As you casually say, EDIS-8, I think that involves a new distributor for me,

Nope, you can leave the old distributor where it is (it's still driving the oil pump anyway!) and it's fun to watch people see your engine running with no leads on the dizzy cap

or at least one from a breaker's

Again, not necessarily, Bill Shurvinton has a stack of EDIS-8's ready to go.

then putting a sensor on the crankshaft! The whole engine could fall apart on me at that stage

The toothed wheel only needs to go on the front pulley somewhere and the sensor pointing at it, here's a rather too shiny installation on a Rover V8:

Is the option of MS'n'S with a standard distributor [vacuum unplugged to 'lock' the distributor] workable as a stopgap until I get electronic distribution, then change without replacing the Megasquirt parts?

Should be, I don't know the ins-and-outs of the single coil driver (you may need a small change to the MS board to work it) - again Bill can supply the ECU ready built and modified to suit.

[MarkieB]

Yogi? Isn't he a bear?

However, "smarter than the average bear"

the OED says 'a devotee of Yoga', although I think it's occasionally equivalent to 'guru' OK, head big enough now? :D :D

I think I get the picture now, so the toothed wheel + the sensor send messages to the EDIS that triggers the coil packs

http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/ed...hatyouneed.html

without the need for an electronic distributor at all. So I hopefully download a fuel map, put it into Megasquirt [just noticed that sounds too simple, there must be sensors/controllers involved too], then set the ignition timing, hey presto! It sounds easier every minute.

One more less-than-fully-up-with-it question, is it possible to adjust the amplification of the spark with Megasquirt EDIS — or at least connect a hefty amp permanently, as I'm looking for a stronger spark for the Lpg?

[MarkieB]

No! Now I look carefully at the Megasquirt details I see this:

"In order to use MegaSquirt, you will have to implement a high-pressure fuel supply system."

so it won't precisely be tomorrow that all this is happening then! :lol:

Unless the Lpg in itself, working from carbs, counts as 'high pressure'

on the plus side, my conclusion from all my reading is that it looks as though it's possible to rotate the distributor, thus advancing the spark, manually, so [he thinks] I could scribe a mark for petrol, adjust for Lpg, scribe a mark for Lpg, then rotate manually as necessary on the rare occasions.

All that I'd be lacking would be the "double intensity" spark that RPI advertise as a result either of their A&R 2-fuel module or their Mallory 2-fuel distributor, that in itself is less pricey than LR distributors [although they advertise recon for £150 with the A&R]. Unless I locate a high-power amp designed to simply improve spark, although according to RPI it's more to do with switching technology switching the coil current on/off more quickly/efficiently.

Incidentally best price so far for Magnecor is £49.50 for a set of 8 8mm leads:

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/catalog/produ...roducts_id=2378

[FridgeFreezer]

I think I get the picture now, so the toothed wheel + the sensor send messages to the EDIS that triggers the coil packs

Correct, and the MS ECU tells the EDIS what advance to set.

So I hopefully download a fuel map, put it into Megasquirt [just noticed that sounds too simple, there must be sensors/controllers involved too], then set the ignition timing, hey presto! It sounds easier every minute.

You've pretty much got it, it's not difficult. All you need to remember is the Ford (EDIS) coil pack firing order is not the same as the Rover V8, so don't put HT leads onto the coil packs in the marked order. The MS uses most of the sensors that are already fitted on the V8 EFi setup, all you need to add is an air temperature sensor (universal thermistor costing about £1.50) and a Lambda sensor (about £15 including boss).

One more less-than-fully-up-with-it question, is it possible to adjust the amplification of the spark with Megasquirt EDIS — or at least connect a hefty amp permanently, as I'm looking for a stronger spark for the Lpg?

The EDIS will give a stronger spark than the stock points or ignition amp anyway, and some units support multi-spark too (check the MS-Extra website).

No! Now I look carefully at the Megasquirt details I see this:

"In order to use MegaSquirt, you will have to implement a high-pressure fuel supply system."

So it won't precisely be tomorrow that all this is happening then! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Unless the Lpg in itself, working from carbs, counts as 'high pressure'

I think you're missing the point a bit - in order to fit fuel injection, the injectors need a high-pressure fuel supply - however, a high-pressure fuel pump is fitted to every vehicle that runs EFi (quite obvious really), I'm not sure about LPG injectors - perhaps they run on normal LPG pressure.

[MarkieB]

well I hope I got the point, although I couldn't be absolutely certain , what I'm saying is that the bank manager won't let me invest in Megasquirt [+ EFI heads unless I file mine] + various EFI parts as quickly as all that, it was a vain hope that the Lpg pressurisation counted as a pressurized fuelling system for the sake of Megasquirt; the point being that unless it were possible to install Megasquirt without EFI, that puts my ambitions in that direction on hold for a while, so I'll make the temporary manual adjustments until then.

[FridgeFreezer]

Mark - you'll find it's pretty difficult to install any EFi system without injectors

That said you could quite happily run an MS ECU for ignition only (no fuel), in fact the MegaJolt is a cut-down MegaSquirt specifically for ignition only.

[geoffbeaumont]

That said you could quite happily run an MS ECU for ignition only (no fuel), in fact the MegaJolt is a cut-down MegaSquirt specifically for ignition only.

However, there should be no problem using the standard Megasquirt for spark control only, IIRC? That way you can still upgrade to fuel injection later.

I'm pretty sure LPG injectors run off the standard line pressure from the tanks, but I've only got a venturi system, so I could be wrong. It's a possible upgrade for later, as putting Megasquirt in control of both fuels should get rid of one or two eccentricities of the current LPG system, plus allowing me to tune it up properly (or make a real mess of it... ).

Here's my slightly less shiny interpretation of the trigger wheel (about as far as my installation has got, so far):

[FridgeFreezer]

However, there should be no problem using the standard Megasquirt for spark control only, IIRC? That way you can still upgrade to fuel injection later.

Correct, indeed you can.

[MarkieB]

good news, that was what I was hoping to do; it was the comment on the Megasquirt fuelling page that had me worried, it sounds as though it was more sweeping than correct.

My thinking is to install Megasquirt with as much capability as possible 'in reserve' [basically the most recent version, is it MS-II version 3, as I may do my own wiring on Megasquirt itself] although adding components one at a time, the spark timing being the priority for now; as the idea of precisely filing crescent shapes into my heads worries me a bit too, I'd rather keep the basic heads [as a fall-back], pick up a pair of EFI heads [possibly with a few more Bhp :D ] when there's funding for that, then add the fuelling capability to Megasquirt at that stage. I'm pleased to see it looks as though MS-II has unified all the scraps of code so that the spark control is part of the main programme, I was looking at the MS'nS Edis before, it looked very fiddly on the computing side.

John, for spark control only, I'm hoping I could do without most of the additional sensors such as the EFI sensors/ the air temp sensor/ the lambda sensor for the time being — It looks as though a vacuum tube to the sensor already on MS-II + a simple connection to the coolant temp. sensor on top of the EDIS + VR should do?

Lpg is liquid at 6 bar [i suppose that's the pressure in the on-vehicle tanks] while I think fuel injection pumps are rated at 60psi, so quite similar, although the Lpg is slightly higher pressure; I suppose that the regulator/vaporiser brings down the pressure, to inlet manifold/carburettor pressure. On an EFI installation, sounds reasonable that the Lpg injectors would work direct from tank pressure.

[MarkieB]

incidentally, it looks as though MS-II is capable of changing ignition timing, firing the coil directly, although possibly marginally less effectively, without the additional, quite considerable cost of Edis:

http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/vb921.htm

you could even get away without those very clever toothed wheels + VR sensors, as it picks up on all kinds of traditional tacho signals from distributors directly, including points:

http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/pickups.htm#points

with apologies on behalf of those quick, clever inventors to those who have worked so hard fitting toothed wheels to their pulleys B)

[geoffbeaumont]

with apologies on behalf of those quick, clever inventors to those who have worked so hard fitting toothed wheels to their pulleys B)

I decided to stick with a tried and tested solution and leave the bleeding edge to someone else, considering the main point of fitting electronic ignition to my car is to make it more reliable

[MarkieB]

you've maybe got a point there. On looking more closely at the detail, I see 2 main flaws so far:

1. The MS-II is a bit new, so no-one has as yet written the additional code needed for hot switching between 2 sets of fuel, ignition, etcetera tables for 2 fuels. Although as the code is in C+ before assembling, that should be a relatively simple task. There is already control of 2 independent sets of injectors, simply not, as I understand it, the ability to switch one set on while switching the other set off, then the reverse; plus that's simply fuel tables, not ignition etcetera.

2. To drive a signal to MS-II from the distributor, the vacuum + centrifuge must be disabled, so the signal is at a constant time with regard to the cylinder action, Megasquirt does the compensating for vacuum/revs. Unplugging the vacuum from the distributor is a simple task, although disabling the centrifuge effectively is at the least not easy to reverse. So simply switching off Megasquirt to return to petrol settings isn't really possible.

2a. More worrying, once the rotor is nailed down that way, it has to send a signal to MS-II, then MS-II activates the coil at the appropriate time. However the rotor must be in contact with an HT connection when MS-II does that. Unless you get a special wide-contact rotor arm, chances are that on a V8 that only gives at most 22.5 degrees of variability, in a fixed range, then 22.5 degrees of 'untouchable' time [assuming the rotor is in contact with an HT connection 50% of the time]; may not be sufficient. Of course I suppose MS-II could fire a coil pack directly, too, although I gather the ignition advance system works on 'next cylinder' without specifically knowing what cylinder that is, so synchronisation could be a further question [probably involving toothed wheels :lol: ]. I haven't, as you may imagine, bothered looking into it that deeply, as that kind of fiddling isn't for newbies.

As MS-II needs a bit of development, possibly an add-on card, possibly a new version, before it is capable of controlling sequential injection, whose increased economy at lower revs frankly sounds a good idea to me, I think I'll wait to see what developments in MS-II appear in the near future, looks as though I'll be staying a bit low-tech for now, scribing marks tomorrow then :)

Incidentally, it looks as though the capacity to trigger from points/electronic ignition hall sensors/optical distributor pickups then send a signal direct to the coil is in MS'nS E too, simply that MS-II simplifies the task as it puts everything on one more solid card with higher voltage capability, controlled from the CPU, components normally automatically installed on the card during the installation process.

[MarkieB]

corrections + further details to add, for reference:

It looks as though vehicle gpl tanks are kept at in the region of 10 bar just in case anybody blows themselves up based on what they read here :D

There's a special high-pressure vaporiser for [gas] injection Lpg, then it's either bank injected by a distributor [wastes 20-40%, a metering valve reduces waste] or sequentially injected [whose virtues vis-à-vis Lpg are apparently more vaunted, including engine function, power curves etcetera, than those for petrol]

There is of course liquid Lpg injection, although the current price of pumps, injectors, etcetera, makes it a bit specialist for the time being.

There's a French ignition-only card + chip on the market, at €70, that directly maps rpm to advance; standard manual vacuum virtually certainly needs connecting; although to programme it yourself [rather than writing a graph then sending it in for programming] the programming interface to the chip costs €60, making it cost as much as the lower price range for Megasquirt; it works direct from points as from hall sensors, although as with Megasquirt, there are variable results taking timing from the distributor, possibly as a result of irregular movement of the distributor itself; it has, as I understand it, Lpg/petrol switchability pre-programmed although I think the necessary switch is an additional peripheral:

a110

changing to:

link to forum [in French!]