Allisport propane kit

[Chicken Drumstick]

I'm interested in the Allisport propane kit for my 200Tdi. I understand how it works and also know its not new.

I've tried emailing Allisport but to no avail. Does anyone having any experience with it? What sort of real world power gains should be expected and how reliable has it been?

I've seen what looks to be the same kit from a US supplier: http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/

Anyone know if it is the same?

Ta.

[andylandy]

propane is to diesel what nos is to petrol

andy at (ALLISPORT) is away until monday

once you have fitted it and used it you will be prepard to lose arm`s instead of handing the kit back over

[tombraider110]

thinking of fitting it to the new truck but i don't think we would be aloud to use it in the howling wolf comps

[bakewell]

kit sounds interesting?

[Chicken Drumstick]

propane is to diesel what nos is to petrol

andy at (ALLISPORT) is away until monday

once you have fitted it and used it you will be prepard to lose arm`s instead of handing the kit back over

So you've tried it?

I understand how some can say like nitrous, but it's quite a differenet process as far as I understand. Isn't NOS an oxidiser while propane in diesel is an accelerant??

Guess I'll have to wait until next week and see if Andy gets back to me. Always has in the past (they tuned my 200Tdi and fitted the intercooler).

[Fatboy]

Nitrous is an oxidiser in that it adds oxygen to the process to allow a chemical reaction to take place.

Propane in a diesel engine is a catalyst - its combustion provides heat to encourage the diesel to burn more completely.

(I think )

[Chicken Drumstick]

Nitrous is an oxidiser in that it adds oxygen to the process to allow a chemical reaction to take place.

Propane in a diesel engine is a catalyst - its combustion provides heat to encourage the diesel to burn more completely.

(I think )

I've seen it listed as a catalyst before, infact lots of automotive things get called that, I found this website which was quite interesting though: http://www.mrsharkey.com/lpg.htm

It says this:

Introducing LPG gas into the combustion air intake of a diesel engine acts as an accelerant, promoting the even burning of the diesel fuel, and more complete combustion, resulting in more power being produced. Many web pages and forum posts will call LPG a "catalyst" but this is not correct, as LPG creates no change in the molecular makeup of either the air or the diesel fuel.

Although I admit I have little idea if its accurate or not...

Still wouldn't mind hearing some 1st hand experience with propane on a Landy Tdi though, I've heard of some on VW Tdi's but they didn't seem to report much success, although this might just have been their setup. But if it offers anything like the performance claimed in Allisports ad then it should be rather impressive.

[Steve 90]

We teamed up with Andy Chaplin (Posted higher in this topic) a few years ago on the MT's. He was running Propane. I have no ideas of the ins and outs or the drivability of it. One thing is for sure, When it was turned on the increase in performance was quite obviously impressive and well worth it. A lot of bang for ya buck if you ask me. Simple, reasonably cheap and more effective than pretty much any other mod on a diesel. Plus you only need to turn it on when your in situations where you think you'll need that extra performance so if your cruising along on tittling about the engine can run as std with no extra stress. I still cant understand why more people dont use it, If I was still running a diesel I'd have it fitted.

[will_warne]

Although I admit I have little idea if its accurate or not...

Yes, that sounds correct. I've not done any Chemistry since I finished my degree but here goes. A catalyst lowers the activation energy of the reactants (ie the energy you need to put into a reaction to make it start - think of this like the energy you must add to a fire to make it light). This is done in several ways: either the catalyst can be a small molecule that reacts with reactant A, promotes a reaction with reaction B and then gets spat out again at the end of the reaction. The other main way is that the catalyst provides an active site that reactant A binds with. Reactant A is then held in a position that makes it more susceptible to attack by reactant B. This is how a catalytic converter in a car works. In all cases, at the end of the reaction you still have the same amount of as at the beginning of the reaction catalyst ie A + B + Cat -> AB + Cat. Given that the propane is forming no part of the reaction at a molecular level it is not a catalyst; it is simple a side reaction that results in faster propagation of the flame front.

As with Steve, I'd run propane if a) I had a truck at the moment and B) it was diesel powered. As I have neither it is not an issue

[Chicken Drumstick]

We teamed up with Andy Chaplin (Posted higher in this topic) a few years ago on the MT's. He was running Propane. I have no ideas of the ins and outs or the drivability of it. One thing is for sure, When it was turned on the increase in performance was quite obviously impressive and well worth it. A lot of bang for ya buck if you ask me. Simple, reasonably cheap and more effective than pretty much any other mod on a diesel. Plus you only need to turn it on when your in situations where you think you'll need that extra performance so if your cruising along on tittling about the engine can run as std with no extra stress. I still cant understand why more people dont use it, If I was still running a diesel I'd have it fitted.

Thanks.

Have to say the more I read about it the more I want it. Just need to figure out where to put the propane tank in the Disco though, don't really want it in the back if I can avoid it, wonder if theres enough room underneath to keep them out of harms way off road??

[David Sparkes]

Have to say the more I read about it the more I want it. Just need to figure out where to put the propane tank in the Disco though, don't really want it in the back if I can avoid it, wonder if theres enough room underneath to keep them out of harms way off road??

I see you are recognising that there are some negatives. Here's a summary of some aspects, based on my experience of running a system a few years ago, before Allisport were offering a service:

How large should the tank be, because while a large tank means it needs filling less often, a large tank is also more expensive, and is heavy even when empty, so can your springs handle it?

Because of the internal pressure, tanks can't be any old shape, fitting into whatever space is left, like a blow moulded plastic tank can. You can get complex shaped tanks, often made up of two or more standard tanks having big holes cut in them, then welded together (all professionally done and certified), but of course the price is high (even higher).

Then decide where to fit it. A plus is that IF, repeat IF, the mounting system is strong enough, the tanks themselves will take a strong hit without damage, so sill tanks will work, if there is space, and will stand close contact with the ground.

Then there is the snag of filling them; even if you go to a station (like some BP) where they have both Autogas and Diesel pumps, it's two separate operations. You pay for this facility in the price per litre. You had better not be in a hurry, and never think that the extra time spent filling will be made up by travelling faster. Life doesn't work like that.

If you don't go to a dual fuel station you have to go miles to find an Autogas station, so the fuel costs more anyway.

Then there's fuelling, how much? When? Really, however you engineer it, you are looking at the need to have two complimentary fuel maps (to use current phrasing). 'Engineer it' means crude on or off, or progressive, related to throttle position and boost pressure, plus EGT and coolant temperature controls if you wish.

You needn't worry about not recognising having the LPG fuelling too high, the resultant pinking is loud enough to defeat any sound proofing, or Direct Injection diesel knock.

Also, if you are putting in too much LPG to burn, but not enough to pink, the exhaust gives off a very distinctive sickly sweet smell. Very obvious in an underground car park. I notice the smell occasionally just walking in city streets and am never sure if it's a Diesel + LPG installation, or if Petrol engines running on LPG also give off the same smell due to incomplete combustion (due to overfuelling). I suspect they do.

If someone else already sells a system for your engine, then great, it's just money.

If you want to develop a bespoke system you had better be 'hands on' yourself, or have deep pockets, with hands that will reach the bottom so you can pay someone else.

Then there's maintenance. When you think the engine isn't performing as well as it used to, who's going to say whether it's diesel fuelling or LPG fuelling, or exactly which sensor is playing up? You've seen all the posts on here with people flustering over 'what is wrong', and the multitude of assessments that come back. At least there is a large body of people with experience of diesel engines, but diesel plus LPG? Take a good look in the mirror, the expert on your installation is looking back at you.

I know some people come to forums about every little problem, but I think you will need to develop the ability, if you haven't got it already, of making assessments (correct assessments) of what is happening, and creating solutions based on a good understanding of the principles involved.

If you are interested, it's a good hobby to follow, giving good training in systems assessment, etc. This is a transferable skill, over and above any specific Diesel + LPG knowledge you obtain.

It can depend on the base unit, but if it's any good as a diesel engine, there is next to zero chance of reducing running costs due to improved efficiency in burning the diesel. The total costs of the fuels rises more than the Miles Per Litre, or however you want to express it.

The additional performance comes as much, or more, from burning additional fuel rather than a more efficient diesel burn. Very difficult to find scientific evidence, one way or the other, about 'more fuel V increased efficiency' benefits. Measuring this needs some expensive kit, normally found in research labs.

Against this, get an engine with really poor combustion, that often gives black smoke, and high diesel consumption (I was told a version of the Toyota King Cab falls into this catagory). There the improved burn really shows itself, making the LPG fumigation system very rewarding. Or so I was told.

As always, plenty of web opinions (like this post is), some based on experience, some on imagination.

If anyone gets heavy, ask how they measure the LPG flow (Vapour or Liquid) in their car. Tank full to tank empty was the only answer I was ever given, which is a useless way of assessing fuel usage in a dual fuel system. I did try measuring, and recording, LPG Vapour flow, but the results were inconclusive.

My engine survived, I still use it today, but while the LPG system is still fitted, I don't bother using it. I relied on someone else to provide the fuelling control. While that was under development I decided to let them lead, (too many cooks spoil the broth). By the time it became apparent that his ideas weren't really working, I had seen enough of the negatives of daily use, and I no longer have the commitment to develop my own LPG fuel control system.

Have fun!!

[Chicken Drumstick]

I see you are recognising that there are some negatives. Here's a summary of some aspects, based on my experience of running a system a few years ago, before Allisport were offering a service:

How large should the tank be, because while a large tank means it needs filling less often, a large tank is also more expensive, and is heavy even when empty, so can your springs handle it?

Because of the internal pressure, tanks can't be any old shape, fitting into whatever space is left, like a blow moulded plastic tank can. You can get complex shaped tanks, often made up of two or more standard tanks having big holes cut in them, then welded together (all professionally done and certified), but of course the price is high (even higher).

Then decide where to fit it. A plus is that IF, repeat IF, the mounting system is strong enough, the tanks themselves will take a strong hit without damage, so sill tanks will work, if there is space, and will stand close contact with the ground.

Then there is the snag of filling them; even if you go to a station (like some BP) where they have both Autogas and Diesel pumps, it's two separate operations. You pay for this facility in the price per litre. You had better not be in a hurry, and never think that the extra time spent filling will be made up by travelling faster. Life doesn't work like that.

If you don't go to a dual fuel station you have to go miles to find an Autogas station, so the fuel costs more anyway.

Then there's fuelling, how much? When? Really, however you engineer it, you are looking at the need to have two complimentary fuel maps (to use current phrasing). 'Engineer it' means crude on or off, or progressive, related to throttle position and boost pressure, plus EGT and coolant temperature controls if you wish.

You needn't worry about not recognising having the LPG fuelling too high, the resultant pinking is loud enough to defeat any sound proofing, or Direct Injection diesel knock.

Also, if you are putting in too much LPG to burn, but not enough to pink, the exhaust gives off a very distinctive sickly sweet smell. Very obvious in an underground car park. I notice the smell occasionally just walking in city streets and am never sure if it's a Diesel + LPG installation, or if Petrol engines running on LPG also give off the same smell due to incomplete combustion (due to overfuelling). I suspect they do.

If someone else already sells a system for your engine, then great, it's just money.

If you want to develop a bespoke system you had better be 'hands on' yourself, or have deep pockets, with hands that will reach the bottom so you can pay someone else.

Then there's maintenance. When you think the engine isn't performing as well as it used to, who's going to say whether it's diesel fuelling or LPG fuelling, or exactly which sensor is playing up? You've seen all the posts on here with people flustering over 'what is wrong', and the multitude of assessments that come back. At least there is a large body of people with experience of diesel engines, but diesel plus LPG? Take a good look in the mirror, the expert on your installation is looking back at you.

I know some people come to forums about every little problem, but I think you will need to develop the ability, if you haven't got it already, of making assessments (correct assessments) of what is happening, and creating solutions based on a good understanding of the principles involved.

If you are interested, it's a good hobby to follow, giving good training in systems assessment, etc. This is a transferable skill, over and above any specific Diesel + LPG knowledge you obtain.

It can depend on the base unit, but if it's any good as a diesel engine, there is next to zero chance of reducing running costs due to improved efficiency in burning the diesel. The total costs of the fuels rises more than the Miles Per Litre, or however you want to express it.

The additional performance comes as much, or more, from burning additional fuel rather than a more efficient diesel burn. Very difficult to find scientific evidence, one way or the other, about 'more fuel V increased efficiency' benefits. Measuring this needs some expensive kit, normally found in research labs.

Against this, get an engine with really poor combustion, that often gives black smoke, and high diesel consumption (I was told a version of the Toyota King Cab falls into this catagory). There the improved burn really shows itself, making the LPG fumigation system very rewarding. Or so I was told.

As always, plenty of web opinions (like this post is), some based on experience, some on imagination.

If anyone gets heavy, ask how they measure the LPG flow (Vapour or Liquid) in their car. Tank full to tank empty was the only answer I was ever given, which is a useless way of assessing fuel usage in a dual fuel system. I did try measuring, and recording, LPG Vapour flow, but the results were inconclusive.

My engine survived, I still use it today, but while the LPG system is still fitted, I don't bother using it. I relied on someone else to provide the fuelling control. While that was under development I decided to let them lead, (too many cooks spoil the broth). By the time it became apparent that his ideas weren't really working, I had seen enough of the negatives of daily use, and I no longer have the commitment to develop my own LPG fuel control system.

Have fun!!

Thanks for the informative reply.

Can I ask, was you setup similar to the one Allisport sell?

I'm not looking at it for daily use, just as a performance mod when required. I've heard of people saying the LPG tank should be 25% of the diesel tank, no idea if that's accurate or not, but providing it would not run out in 5 mins I'm ok with that.

I'd expect cost per mile to increase when in use, it would be burning 2 fuels afterall. I did rather disagree with Allisports ad about claiming better mpg as it is deliberately misleading.

I may be way off base, but my hopes or expectations would be to retain my current performance (tuned pump & turbo and full width intercooler) with moderate smoke @ WOT when propane not in use. At the flick of a switch gain ~ 25% HP increase (35-40hp). I wouldn't run it all the time, just when out for a spirited drive, pulling out on fast moving roads or joining dual carriage ways. Use it as a fun addition rather than part of the daily driver usage.

A smallish tank (I'd guess 3-5 gallons) shouldn't be so hard to locate on the vehicle and the duel filling part doesn't bother me. If the tanks empty it can stay empty until I either have the time/money/inclination to refill it.

Do you think I'm being a hopelessly optimistic????

BTW - what engine did you have yours on and what sort of HP boost did it give.

[TheHarv]

Wary of sticking my (n00b) oar in, but have you looked at water/methanol injection?

I'm no expert but from what I've read about the subject propane seems more appropriate in a situation where you've reached the limits of the available fuelling / injection advance AND YOUR EGT IS STILL WITHING ACCEPTABLE LIMITS

Perhaps that's why all the kits seem to come out of my (current) side of the pond where diesels are typically 6.9 or 7.3 'liters'

If as David says most of the gains come from the fuel (calorific) value of the propane rather than any magic 'catalytic' properties, then water/meth will give you at least *some* of the same but will LOWER the EGT through its latent heat of vapourization - this allows you to turn up the fuel / boost safely and get the rest of your gain directly from diesel calories.

To my mind it's more practical - if you run out of meth you can run it on pure water and still get the lowered EGT.

[David Sparkes]

Thanks for the informative reply.

Can I ask, was you setup similar to the one Allisport sell?

Don't know, I'm not familiar with their setup (and I'm not bothered about knowing either).

At the flick of a switch gain ~ 25% HP increase (35-40hp).

Do you think I'm being a hopelessly optimistic????

I'm sure what you propose will work.

I make no comment, for or against, about your expected power increase. I have no experience, in any form, of the 200TDi.

BTW - what engine did you have yours on and what sort of HP boost did it give.

BMW 2.5, and I don't know about the power increase. The installation was never fully developed regards LPG fuel control.

Measuring engine power on a rolling road is a can of worms all of it's own. Ideally you need a 4WD road, with an operator that will let you adjust the fuelling installation as required. All the time you are paying his (expensive) hourly rate.

As installed, I could switch the LPG on and off via a solenoid in the liquid supply to the vaporiser. On full throttle uphill runs, switching on gave smoke and more speed. Switching off stopped the smoke, and the vehicle slowed down.

HTH