On board Expedition water tanks & purification

[leeds]

Ensuring you get clean safe drinking water can be difficult in certain parts of the world. Steritabs used to be readily available, have not used them in years but the after taste was awlful.

People who are going to travel might like to consider an ultra filtration water bottle such as the Lifesaver 4000UF. There website is HERE

Not cheap but managed to get one at Billing at a much cheaper price then the advertised web price.

Now would it be possible to plumb one into a vehicle? No idea but might be worth an enquiry.

Hope that helps some people

Regards

Brendan

[Eightpot]

When do you think you'll need an exceptional amount of water by the way?

If theres only one or two of you going, I would imagine a couple of 25l jerrys would be ample? - I've never managed to use more than about 30 litres on a trip, longest being a 500 mile drive through the ubari in Libya without water stops. You can always use other vessels or buy some bottled if you know for a fact there is nowhere to stop for the next week or so.

Take more beer

[Godlykepower]

When do you think you'll need an exceptional amount of water by the way?

If theres only one or two of you going, I would imagine a couple of 25l jerrys would be ample? - I've never managed to use more than about 30 litres on a trip, longest being a 500 mile drive through the ubari in Libya without water stops. You can always use other vessels or buy some bottled if you know for a fact there is nowhere to stop for the next week or so.

I would just rather be safe than sorry. I will be crossing the Western Sahara & heading further south. I expect there WILL be places to stock up on water, but I dont want to take chances.

This wont be solely drinking water, but cooking & washing water too. I dont want the amount of water I can carry to dictate too much how long i can stay in an area, ie if I had more water than only 2x Jerry's, then i could stay somewhere remote for longer.

Thing is, you just DONT know for a fact that bottled water is available at all times, nor can you vouch for its cleanliness. I have heard that in places some unscrupulous people will fill water bottles with tap water & just replace the seals on them.

My mind is made up, on board water is what I want.

[Godlykepower]

Take more beer

I considered taking a Sankey just for the weekly beer consumption I have planned!

[leeds]

This SITE might be of interest.

Brendan

[RustyNissanPrairie]

Keep it as simple and light as possible. Work on the assumption that everything on the truck can and will break. Jerry cans can be replaced on route, fancy pumps systems cannot be replaced.

Take a kelly kettle and boil your water if you're really unsure of the source take a Katadyn product, either the camp bag;

http://www.katadyn.com/en/katadyn-products...e/katadyn-camp/

or the pocket pump;

http://www.katadyn.com/en/katadyn-products...katadyn-pocket/

[Godlykepower]

Brendan, now THAT is a very, very good and useful link.

Yep, I agree, backup is essential. I was always planning on taking some small unit in case of emergency.

I was thinking more along the lines of an MSR Mini Works. See them HERE I used to use one of these in my mountaineering days.

[RichardAllen]

Pursuing the set of jerry cans instead of a water tank option. I have four ex-army black plastic water jerrycans (off that auction site £20), which I have just tried and fit neatly across the load space by the bulkhead with about 100mm to spare (closer dimensions are: height 450mm, including handle and screwtops, depth 340mm, width 4 x 180mm = 720mm. ) Each jerrycan holds 20 litres and weighs about 2kg giving a total water capacity of 80 litres weighing 88kg all up. We will have 2 adults and 2 children, so i suspect 80 litres should be plenty for most routes.

Regards

Richard

[Godlykepower]

Dont suppose you have a picture of that particular set-up Richard?

You have just given me the inkling of an idea........

Martin

[RichardAllen]

Dont suppose you have a picture of that particular set-up Richard?

You have just given me the inkling of an idea........

Martin

Martin,

I have not yet built the setup properly (framing and fixed points for ratchets etc) but I may be able to mock it up this evening and post a pic (entertaining in-laws !).

On another water track, I looked into purification, and particularly checking out some of the manufacturer's claims. I found a 2006 664 page report from the US Army Centre for Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine into Individual Water Purifiers (IWP's), in which General Ecology's purifiers come out well.

Quote:"Develop IWP Recommendations. Due to the narrow spread of scores among the MCDM analysis top-scoring IWPs, there will likely be several acceptable low-risk IWPs for any situation. Users should consider the characteristics and required tradeoffs of their unique situation to select a low-risk, useful IWP from the MCDM top scorers. Even with the noted MCDM results limitations, consider the three IWPs below as generally recommended, based on their described strengths.

(1) Consider the SweetWater® Purifier from Mountain Safety Research, Inc., as the highest-scoring overall filter-based IWP. It is commercially packaged as a combination filter and disinfectant. It removes all four pathogens of interest. For use in conditions requiring a very small and lightweight IWP, however, the filter’s size and weight make it an unsuitable option.

(2) Consider the Micropur MP 1 Tablets from Katadyn North America, Inc., as the highest-scoring overall disinfectant-based IWP. It removes all four pathogens of interest, and is very lightweight. However, it has a detrimental effect on the taste and odor of the water, and it has a long purification time. Both of these weaknesses are common to the disinfectant-based IWPs considered in this Project.

(3) Consider the First Need Deluxe from General Ecology, Inc., as the highest-scoring filter-only IWP. The Project Team rated this IWP, based on technology, for expected removal of all four pathogens of interest. Protocol-based test data is required to confirm this. It is the smallest and lightest device of the General Ecology, Inc., family of IWPs. For use in conditions requiring a very small and lightweight IWP, however, its size and weight make it an unsuitable option.

(4) Consider device combinations as an option to increase pathogen removal capabilities and reduce risk in using IWPs. Combinations were not evaluated in this study, but this concept would have the potential to provide a greater range of capabilities. "

The study covered 36 purifiers and is comprehensive as the military often are. It also came out with a neat database. Unfortunately the report and database have now been taken offline. But I have a copy of the report (3.4MB) which I can pm to anyone interested.

It is notable that with water filters, a crucial bit is how fine the filter is, therefore how many bugs and viruses it removes. General Ecology quote 0.4 microns, or 400 nanometers as the size of the holes in their Nature Pure filter. Tom Sheppard quotes the smallest viruses (polio etc) at down to .02-.08 microns equating to 20 to 80 nanometers. So the NaturePure won't get rid of all of them. Lifesaver quoted above give their virus removal spec as ">99.999 %". How these therefore compare I don't know. Maybe there is a grown-up who does.

It may be safe to say that the Lifesave is newer technology and may be better at filtering. However, for an expedition with a number of people, you might need several Lifesaver bottles as the rate at which you can get pure water through it is quite slow. Also General Ecology do a unti which is intended to be built into a vehicle with a tap (and is used on Airbus 380's apparently). The Lifesaver bottle is a backpacker style filter.

Tom Sheppard also offers other wisdom on making water safe to drink, the best being boiling it, and a Kelly kettle seems a good bet. For me I am looking seriously at General Ecology's Nature Pure filter system. It will be some while before I need one in anger so I did not shell out the £165 asking prioce at Billing on Sunday.

Regards

Richard

[Godlykepower]

Ricahrd, I will probably just stick with my original Mountain Safety Research Miniworks unit until I hear otherwise that this is unsuitable. I dont want to spend too much money on what, at the end of the day, is only a back-up unit in case my on-board unit fails.

If you could post a mock up picture, that would be great! I would just like to see the layout, and I can work out the securing/mounting myself if there is enough evidence for me to NOT go with a fixed tank.

Martin

[stravaigin]

We use NATO plastic cans with a sureflo pump and an on demand tap, its probably a more complicated set up than it needs to be but it works for us and I had fun putting it together. A super siphon would be a simple solution. I have the tap fitted to a hinge so it folds out of the rear door when we set up camp. I have a spare cap for the Jerry cans which I drilled a hole on that the delivery hose just fits through so I can leave it set up and it doesn't splash. I do recon we use more water this way though.

Tom Sheppard also states that Jerry cans are a good option in case you have to unload weight to get unstuck or even to transfer to another vehicle in case of a breakdown or emergency. I'm sure you are hoping not to abandon your vehicle but if it was necessary then water would be high on your list of "bug out" items

Steve's TD5 tank idea is an interesting option if you do go for a built in unit but then maybe using that area for an extra fuel tank would be better given the standard range of a 90.

I use Milton to sterilise, that's what we use on the planes too and its even safe to drink neat.

[Godlykepower]

We use NATO plastic cans with a sureflo pump and an on demand tap

This is the idea that Richard has given me!

What are the thoughts on 4 plastic Jerry can lined up along the bulkhead, that CAN be removed if needs be, but for all intents and purposes, are fixed. With some sort of hose system to fill them, and some sort of system (Sureflo pump + filtration) that can in effect treat them all as if it were one big tank, but could bypass an individual tank if one were to break or become contaminated. For example, the system would still be operable if any one, or multiple tanks failed, and had to be removed.

Thoughts please.

Martin

ps i am STILL more in favour of a fixed tank, but this is as close as i have come so far in being swayed

[Ben_J85JTY]

This is the idea that Richard has given me!

What are the thoughts on 4 plastic Jerry can lined up along the bulkhead, that CAN be removed if needs be, but for all intents and purposes, are fixed. With some sort of hose system to fill them, and some sort of system (Sureflo pump + filtration) that can in effect treat them all as if it were one big tank, but could bypass an individual tank if one were to break or become contaminated. For example, the system would still be operable if any one, or multiple tanks failed, and had to be removed.

Thoughts please.

Martin

ps i am STILL more in favour of a fixed tank, but this is as close as i have come so far in being swayed

So, for this system you will need 4 lenghths of tube to fit into the jerry cans, plus someway to seal them once the tube is in place. Each of those will have a tap to isolate it if needed. That would then have to top that off with a T Piece, then round to your pump and showerhead.

Thats a lot of pipework to have around the place? Definatly not impossible but perhaps impractical.

[RichardAllen]

This is the idea that Richard has given me!

What are the thoughts on 4 plastic Jerry can lined up along the bulkhead, that CAN be removed if needs be, but for all intents and purposes, are fixed. With some sort of hose system to fill them, and some sort of system (Sureflo pump + filtration) that can in effect treat them all as if it were one big tank, but could bypass an individual tank if one were to break or become contaminated. For example, the system would still be operable if any one, or multiple tanks failed, and had to be removed.

Thoughts please.

Martin

ps i am STILL more in favour of a fixed tank, but this is as close as i have come so far in being swayed

Ricahrd, I will probably just stick with my original Mountain Safety Research Miniworks unit until I hear otherwise that this is unsuitable. I dont want to spend too much money on what, at the end of the day, is only a back-up unit in case my on-board unit fails.

If you could post a mock up picture, that would be great! I would just like to see the layout, and I can work out the securing/mounting myself if there is enough evidence for me to NOT go with a fixed tank.

Martin

Martin,

I think we have had the same idea.

Not brilliant pic here. Unfortunately the view is somewhat obscured by the two seats, with two baby seats on top. I could have taken the baby seats out for a clearer pic, but they are a b****r to get back in tightly.

Note that at the moment, on the bulkhead on the left is a 2kw inverter, which overhangs the space between the wheelboxes quite a bit, making the jerrycans in the mockup pic lean to the right. When I have turned the inverter 90deg, the jerrycans can be stowed properly upright. I might make a steel frame a bit like the Patriot roofrack ones, or just fix in cargo loops (like the Disco ones, but chunkier), and have two 50mm or 75mm ratchet straps, one holding the cans into the bulkhead and another through the handles holding them down on to the floor.

Regards

Richard

[soutie]

Martin

The system we used when I travelled from The UK to SA was as follows. I had a tray made up that took six jerry cans. I has a flojet demand pump mounted under the bonnet and a nature pure ultrafine water filter mounted in the vehicle.

We used the nature pure filter to filter water for five to six people a day all the way through Tunsia, Lybia, Egypt and the start of Sudan and then again from Ethopia onwards. We stopped filtering water and drank what the locals drank in Sudan without getting ill. One member of our party when reaching Kartoum went back on to bottled water and got an upset guts when those of us who stayed on the Nile water were fine.

It became a ritual that when parked up for the night we would then filter enough water for everybody for the next day. At one stage we where going through five to six litres of water per person per day for drinking.

http://www.generalecologyeurope.com/naturepure.html#specs

The tray fitted on the foor where the second row of seats is in the 110. In fact it attached to the seats mountings. Each jerry can had its own compartment like a box for carrying wine bottles. Each compartment was lined with felt so that the jerry cans would not rub. We stored 5 water and one empty fuel can this way. We used to use a ratchet strap to tie them down to the tray. The advantage of loose Bristish army black plastic water jerry cans is that you can carry them to the water source and then back again to your vehicle. This was useful in Tunsia and Lybia. The other good thing is that you can swop them around so that the full ones are always in the centre of the vehicle.

If you want I can take photo's of the tray and post them.

A link to the website that tracked our progress is here.

http://www.jepps-overland.co.uk/

Peter

[RichardAllen]

Ricahrd, I will probably just stick with my original Mountain Safety Research Miniworks unit until I hear otherwise that this is unsuitable. I dont want to spend too much money on what, at the end of the day, is only a back-up unit in case my on-board unit fails.

If you could post a mock up picture, that would be great! I would just like to see the layout, and I can work out the securing/mounting myself if there is enough evidence for me to NOT go with a fixed tank.

Martin

Martin,

Mountain Safety Reseach kit came out well in the US Army report too.

Regards

Richard

[leeds]

One big problem is that not all virus are know and that they can mutate. This may cause problems as it could be the unknown virus that makes us sick or kill us.

Doing a quick back ground search on viruses gives the size of the smallest virus as 25 nanometres. The filtration pore size on the Lifesaver is 15 nanometres and so should filter out most viruses. So it should be capable of filtering out the vast majourity of viruses

As for flow rates it is 2.5 litres per minute but it only holds 0.75 litres so flow rate not critical as refilling time would be the main time constraint

Brendan

PS Just found this technical FAQ on the Life Saver HERE

[RichardAllen]

We use NATO plastic cans with a sureflo pump and an on demand tap, its probably a more complicated set up than it needs to be but it works for us and I had fun putting it together. A super siphon would be a simple solution. I have the tap fitted to a hinge so it folds out of the rear door when we set up camp. I have a spare cap for the Jerry cans which I drilled a hole on that the delivery hose just fits through so I can leave it set up and it doesn't splash. I do recon we use more water this way though.

Tom Sheppard also states that Jerry cans are a good option in case you have to unload weight to get unstuck or even to transfer to another vehicle in case of a breakdown or emergency. I'm sure you are hoping not to abandon your vehicle but if it was necessary then water would be high on your list of "bug out" items

Steve's TD5 tank idea is an interesting option if you do go for a built in unit but then maybe using that area for an extra fuel tank would be better given the standard range of a 90.

I use Milton to sterilise, that's what we use on the planes too and its even safe to drink neat.

Kev,

Regarding the plumbing your setup seems to be what I have in mind. I will be assuming that the water in the jerrycans is good clear water but not necessarily safe to drink

Using interchangeable push pull garden hose connectors and in-line taps, it should not be too hard to rig the pump up to:

a) push water from an on-board jerrycan through a filter and out through a drinking water tap

b) push water push water from an on-board jerrycan straight to a shower head

c) pull water up from a source, river etc through a coarse filter (fishpond type to keep leaves and grit out) and into a jerrycan

d) push water push water from an on-board jerrycan through the coarse filter to backflush it

e) push water push water from an on-board jerrycan or from a water source into the engine coolant header tank.

I have tested the shurflo and it will pull water up 15feet from my neighbour's well, over the wall and 10 yards down the lane no problem.

Regards

Richard

[Godlykepower]

Thanks for the picture Richard. This 100mm of clearance? Is that with all 4 of the cans sitting in between the wheel boxes, and the space that is left over? 50mm either side of the 2 outer cans?

Geez, a 2 kilowatt inverter!! Do you carry a Mig welder in the back of your vehicle!?

As tentative as my idea is right now, I can see that there will already be a mess of pipework back there. I will have to put a bit more thought into the idea if I were to explore it fully. Maybe lose the desire for the pump to be permanently connected to all the tanks simultaneously? Rather something that pumps/filters whatever can I shove a hose into, and manually put the tube into the next can when the first is empty.

I will sleep on this one.

[RichardAllen]

Peter

Sounds like a great system. When I kit out the 110, I will need the second row of seats for the kids, hence mounting 4 jerry cans behind the load space bulkhead. otherwise it looks like you have road-tested something pretty similar to what I have in mind. Thanks. A pic of your frame would be very helpful. I like the idea of the wine rack, rather than mine of just strap[ping them all tightly together.

Regards

Richard

[soutie]

Richard

I will post up photo's on Thursday evening.

Peter

[RichardAllen]

Thanks for the picture Richard. This 100mm of clearance? Is that with all 4 of the cans sitting in between the wheel boxes, and the space that is left over? 50mm either side of the 2 outer cans?

Geez, a 2 kilowatt inverter!! Do you carry a Mig welder in the back of your vehicle!?

As tentative as my idea is right now, I can see that there will already be a mess of pipework back there. I will have to put a bit more thought into the idea if I were to explore it fully. Maybe lose the desire for the pump to be permanently connected to all the tanks simultaneously? Rather something that pumps/filters whatever can I shove a hose into, and manually put the tube into the next can when the first is empty.

I will sleep on this one.

Martin,

When I did the calcs for the electrical system, the biggest power requirement, oddly, was a hair dryer! I reckon that with a wife and two daughters, it was sensible to assume that I needed a system that could cope with the hair dryer. It is also great when doing electrics as I can run a hot air paint stripper locally for doing heatshrink.

As for the pipework, I agree with the potential for having pipes everywhere. Hence my thoughts are to fit the pump out of the way underneath somewhere with easily accessible brass garden hose type connectors, one for suction and one for discharge. The default configuration would be water from jerrycan through filter to water tap. Other configurations as noted to Kev earlier in this thread would be achieved by swapping around using the connectors. This is early days, but I have done a few tests to prove the feasibility. The main permanent connection will be from filter to water tap, so there is no chance of getting unfiltered water out of the tap. When I have done a bit mor thinking here I will post up the design.

This is proving to be an awesome thread.

Regards

Richard

[hobson]

Although i agree with the ideas on here, i also think if you're out of the way for any length of time simplicity is good, what if your pump breaks etc? i'd also add a millbank bag (used by the army to filter the bits out) and some good steri tabs (i use Pyramid BioxAqua) also a way to boil water, it's the best way to ensure everythings dead.

having onboard water is good but could also limit where you can fill up, having at least one removable 20l jerrycan you ensure you'll be able to get water pretty much anywhere.

and you can always put a 20l can on the roofrack to empty it if you adapt a hose attachment and the use of gravity! if you put a black can on the roof through the day it'd probably heat up enough for a shower too...

also worth a look might be what they use for caravans, i saw a 40l one with wheels for about £45 from Fiamma, that'd certainly make transportation easy!

[Ben_J85JTY]

Although i agree with the ideas on here, i also think if you're out of the way for any length of time simplicity is good

Totally agree. Complex systems will be hard to use and eventually not get used at all. Its the same with ways to pack the truck. If you hvae to be a master at the rubiq qube to pack your truck in the comfort of your own drive, think how you are going to cope when its raining, blowing a gale, sand storms etc.

For me, the whole idea of onboard water is to make it easier for me to get to my water. I fully intend to make sure my tank is filled useing cleam water supplies at all oppertunities using bottles water. It might be a pain buying large quantities of water (say 20 times 2l bottles for example) but that will then see us through for a resonable time. If cleaning is needed, a good rinse through with Milton/Steri tabbed water should do the trick.

A fold up water container will not take up masses of space and can be acarried in the event of having to leave the vehicle.

On a related note, does anyone know where you can get the showerhead attachment that Boab uses on thier systems? Whale used to do a similer showerhead but no longer stock it?