Puffernutter Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Troubled of Trowbridge here. Recently my 1990 Defender 110 County 200Tdi has developed a severe steering vibration at around 45mph, but it would disappear at beyond 50mph. At one point it was noticeable, but not significant, since I've been trying to cure it it's been getting worse and worse! To the point that I dare not drive the car at the moment! Last week it was sufficiently violent that the whole car shakes. Since I have tried a few things it has got even worse, it happens at a lower speed and it doesn't go away so easily. It's like the "death wobble" but this is not instigated by a pot hole but purely by speed. What I have tried - - A while ago (about 9 months) the front prop shaft had both spiders changed for new. - As a result of a recent puncture I have changed one of the wheels on the front nearside and that made no difference. - onight I changed the Panhard rod bushes - no effect, in fact it got worse! - Lastly I tightened the nut on the drop arm (it has worked loose before), it took about a half turn. As a result of the last change on the most recent test run tonight, when accelerating to 40mph a very serious (frightening) wobble started and would go away until the speed had dropped to around 20 mph. I have jacked up the front end and whilst there is a small movement in the front swivels, I wouldn't have said that it was significant (but I'm no expert!) At the moment I daredn't drive it, but I'm not sure what to do next - I come to the font of all Land Rover knowledge for guidance! What else could it be at the front? Could it be at the back? Why has it got worse since I fitted new parts? One additional note is that I have noted over the last few months, very occasionally when cornering I can feel a sort of "pulse" through the steering wheel, I have assumed it associated with the PAS. Could it be something in the steering box that is going into a vibration. There is no sign of a loss of fluid. So, any help please chaps and chapesses! Cheers Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errol209 Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 A possible reason why it has got worse is you've improved something that was compensating for something else. The members of the Big Bad Wobble Posse that you haven't covered so far include: Swivel pin preload and bearings. Jack the front wheels up (one at a time if you like), grasp the tyre firmly at 12 and 6 and see if you can get a clunk out of it. Clunk / any movement at all = swivel bearings gone. You'll need to take the TREs off to test the preload; there is (I am sure) a guide in the Technical Archive. You said that the PAS box drop arm nut was loose - this could easily have knacked the splines when it was loose. Can you feel any movement? Also check the drag link and track rod ends (they're cheap to replace anyway) while you are checking the preload. Using a bar, is there any give in the front radius arm bushes (Hybrid from Hell has a good post on this). Check the tracking as per the string method in the Technical Archive. With the wheels jacked up and the difflock on, what sort of noises do you get trying to rotate the wheels? Wheel end clonks could be the CV joints (hub off to check - see the Technical Archive. Lastly, drop the car off the jacks (with its wheels attached), find an assistant, pop the bonnet, ply the assistant with Hob Nobs and get them to turn the steering wheel gently left and right. There should be no play (in a perfect world). Any play is wear in either the steering column UJs or the PAS box (I'm assuming the steering wheel isn't loose). Rank outsider is the PAS box bolts are loose. That should keep you quiet for a bit, and that's just the front! If it is the back it will be the A-frame ball joint ... p.s. I missed the bleedin' obvious - wheels not kerbed / bent? Wheel nuts done up to appropriate torque? Wheels balanced? Tyre pressures OK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick w Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 mine does it to scares the **** out of you dont it have not managed to completley iliminate it but it was worse after i adjusted the play on the steering via the alan stud and nut on top of the steering box strangley it does nees a bit of play to help prevent the wobble as mentioned muddy tyres play a big part in this too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcwcooper Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 steering column joints can also cause similar symptoms too, if they do need replacing use Genuine joints as ive just had a set of S***part ones which lasted all of 6 months. My bet though would proberly be the swivels. Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy1969 Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 Had a death wobble on mine recently. Combination of knackered tyres, panhard rod bush, track rod end, shock absorber, and swivel preload too loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffernutter Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 Had a death wobble on mine recently. Combination of knackered tyres, panhard rod bush, track rod end, shock absorber, and swivel preload too loose. All, thank you for the many suggestions that have been filed for future reference. In the end swapping the front tyres for rear tyres totally solved the problem. I had a look at the wheels as I changed them and there are no obvious buckles, splits, bulges, weights missing or damage to the rim, so for the moment I am leaving them (and keeping them the way they are). At some point in the future, I will pop the car down to my local tyre place and get them to look them over and also check the balance on those rear wheels. Cheers Peter 1990 110 County - Reggie the Veggie 1985 110 CSW (V8 LPG) - Clumber Spaniel Wagon 1971 Triumpg Stag 1964 Rover P4 110 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Simple things 1st - have you checked wheel balancing (most important on the front). If your on mud tyres, especially if larger than stock, it's easy to be a long way out of balance. The other thing is prop balancing. Remove the front prop, and test drive it with the diff lock on, and if not cured, reinstall the front prop, and try the same with the rear prop. It does sound like it could be a knackered steering box though, but the steering damper would disguise most of the loose-ness, so it would need to be really knackered. I've got a similar problem and just noted I did refit the front propshaft the other way round (last Month) so with the sleeve towards the gearbox and not towards the front axle. Presume that might cause my problem as swivels, bearings, track rod ends and bushes are all fine. Just wondering why the propshaft can cause severe judder/shaking of the front wheels. Is it just a matter of being out of balance and transfering that vibration to the font axle? Cheers Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errol209 Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 I've got a similar problem and just noted I did refit the front propshaft the other way round (last Month) so with the sleeve towards the gearbox and not towards the front axle. Presume that might cause my problem as swivels, bearings, track rod ends and bushes are all fine. Just wondering why the propshaft can cause severe judder/shaking of the front wheels. Is it just a matter of being out of balance and transfering that vibration to the font axle? Cheers Marco Yes it is, probably possibly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffernutter Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 I lied - death wobble back with a vengeance! I hit 40mph today and it was worse than ever! A neighbour has suggested that even new (bog standard) Panhard bushes can have no effect and suggested polybushes (which I am going to try), but another question is the steering damper, a local company sells a "BOGE" made one for £13, the LR part is £49. Is there really much difference? I don't mind spending the money if there is an advantage, but is one damper is as good as the other, then why spend £36 (plus VAT) extra? Any thoughts? Cheers Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errol209 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I lied - death wobble back with a vengeance! I hit 40mph today and it was worse than ever! A neighbour has suggested that even new (bog standard) Panhard bushes can have no effect and suggested polybushes (which I am going to try), but another question is the steering damper, a local company sells a "BOGE" made one for £13, the LR part is £49. Is there really much difference? I don't mind spending the money if there is an advantage, but is one damper is as good as the other, then why spend £36 (plus VAT) extra? Any thoughts? Cheers Peter From your description, I think the steering damper would have to be undone at one end or missing totally! Have you methodically gone through everything on the lists above, plus checking the rear A-frame joints? I have a pattern damper and it's fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcwcooper Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 If you have changed the panhard rod bush for a new one thats very unlikely thats going to be the problem so dont waste any money on new polybushes (although i do use them personally) I very much dout the steering damper is going to be the problem as what you discribe sounds pritty bad. Have you checked the pre-load on the swivels yet? ........what seems like a small amount can be magnified greatly. Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Use the search function theres a host of info re this sort of prob And there are a huge amount of things that can cause what you have Not a definative list but : Wheel balance Tyres swap around, not just front to rear UKs seized or part Seized Panhard rod bushes Control arm bushes Shoc absorders shagged Loose anything bolts and there loads of them Swivel preload Worn wheel bearings with slack in warped discs miss aired tyres ie differences each side output drive bearing worn knacked shocks Check out all of the above mehodically and report back on each Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffernutter Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Current status - I will work through them as fast as I can although being away on business 2 days this week doesn't help! Wheel balance - one checked recently. No obvious weights missing. No bulges etc. Tyres swap around, not just front to rear - Only front to rear done UJs seized or part Seized - will be checked by removing front prop shaft Panhard rod bushes - bushes replaced - no improvement Control arm bushes - appears OK, no excessive play Shock absorbers shagged - appear OK Loose anything bolts and there loads of them - haven't religiously checked them all, but what I have checked in the steering area are OK. Worst offender was the drop arm nut. Swivel preload - on the list to do next Worn wheel bearings with slack in - no excessive play in the front wheels warped discs - not obvious miss aired tyres ie differences each side - checked 2 days ago output drive bearing worn - will be tested via removal of propshaft knacked shocks - as above I'll update the list and effect on the death wobble as each one is tried. Cheers Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Hi, I do have the same puzzle... can not find the source of the steering wobble, swivels, new, propshaft no play, adjusted fw bearings, wheels have been changed, track rods fine, bushes genuine LR recently replaced, today new MOT etc. etc. By now I do wonder if my new yellow front springs (Britpart) might have something to do with it? The problem started after the spring + shock + HD turret change but so far I did not see that possibility listed in the replies / possible causes? My vehicle starts to wobble around the 83km/h mark, +/- 53mph. Cheers Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcwcooper Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Hi, I do have the same puzzle... can not find the source of the steering wobble, swivels, new, propshaft no play, adjusted fw bearings, wheels have been changed, track rods fine, bushes genuine LR recently replaced, today new MOT etc. etc. By now I do wonder if my new yellow front springs (Britpart) might have something to do with it? The problem started after the spring + shock + HD turret change but so far I did not see that possibility listed in the replies / possible causes? My vehicle starts to wobble around the 83km/h mark, +/- 53mph. Cheers Marco Have you looked at the steering uj's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Have you looked at the steering uj's? I've checked the steering UJ's, they seem to be fine as I can not feel any play on them. I did replace them +/- 30.000 km ago (non genuine ones). Might replace them with genuine ones, just to take out that possibility... Cheers Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errol209 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 By now I do wonder if my new yellow front springs (Britpart) might have something to do with it? The problem started after the spring + shock + HD turret change but so far I did not see that possibility listed in the replies / possible causes? To get the shocks to contibute to this problem they would have to be more or less useless and or disconnected, allowing the axle to bounce uncontrollably. To test, try pushing the bumper down with a regular rhythm - if it eventually takes off then you've found the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dantd5 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Had a death wobble on mine recently. Combination of knackered tyres, panhard rod bush, track rod end, shock absorber, and swivel preload too loose. I had these issues in mind and you pumped them right out of my mouth!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil1967 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I had very 'vague' steering on my 1983 110 V8 County, together with a clonking sound on braking - turned out the top bushes on the front shocks were totally knackered, to the extent that one was loose and rattled. Replacing both the front shocks and bushes made a significant improvement to both the steering and the ride. Worth checking....... Regards Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffernutter Posted September 6, 2009 Author Share Posted September 6, 2009 Well, on the advice of a neighbour I removed the brand new LR Panhard bushes and fitted blue Polybushes. A darn site easier to fit and with 200 miles under my belt now, no sign of vibration at any speed! Happy bunny. Now off to Beijing for a fortnight! Thanks for all the advice. Cheers Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I've also replaced the panhard rod bushes, mine with non genuine rubber ones, right now the vehicle is fine altough I've noticed the front radius bushes are too. Last spring I did replace all bushes with expensive OEM rubber ones... bit of a waste of money. Will fit non genuine rubber ones to the radius arms soon, guess they will last longer than the genuine ones. Maybe I did break the bushes while replacing the front springs last June. Not sure if that's possible (lowering the axle) but the problem did first start after that spring change. My new Britpart front springs turned out to be to soft anyway, will now upgrade to Devon 4x4 springs made by OME. Cheers Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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