forestrynick Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Anybody know of details on specification of land rover halfshafts? I recently fitted a 4 pin diff to the back of mine, which came as a whole axle (unfortunately with brakedrums) that im pretty sure was off a military vehicle. Obviosuly being 4 pin it has 24 spline shafts so thats a good start. And i think this has the same shafts as fitted to V8s Now i've heard a rumour that 24 spline shafts for V8s where higher spec and much stronger, even than standard 24 splines. In fact i know of a fairly competitive challenge vehicle that has never broken one. (so he says and actually he broke one a while back, but point still stands!) Can anybody shed any light? is there such a thing as V8 shafts? etc etc etc Nick ps Its boxing day and im bored... can you tell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
errol209 Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 ps Its boxing day and im bored... can you tell? Me too, but sadly it looks like Ashtrans and Kamdiffs Steve aren't, as I bet both of them will know, as well as the lunatic fridge fringe. Anyway, had a good Christmas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 The metals used on both 10 and 24 are I belive the same spec in LR BUT the 24 spklinbe are far far stronger, and this is prob what you heard Its easy to visualize like this Think of a shaft, look at it end on and then look a 10 BIG deep spline cuts, now, draw a line around the base of each of the deep cuts and thats the CORE size, ie the really deep 10 spline cuts give a smaller uncut core Now, same shaft, now cut 24 thin and not very deep splines, and now draw around the base of each spline cut and you'll now see that the CORE is far bigger, and this is why its stonger To now get even stronger you have to but better qulaity shafts, 99% are 24 spline due to the increased core size, and that to make superb strong 10 spline means you go backwards before you can go forwards, GKN make / made these (not cheap) but everytone else goes 24 spline choices are / were Maxidrive, Quaiffe, Ashcroft, KAM, Rakeway, etc etc all use a combo of better quality metals plus then a combo of cyrogenics (freezeing) heat treatments, and other stuff, all the above are good, you choose, but in smple terms yes 24 spline are stonger than 10, but niot due to metals, due to core size Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest noggy Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 So there are no such thing as V8 half shafts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forestrynick Posted December 26, 2009 Author Share Posted December 26, 2009 Yes very good christmas thankyou errol, You? Got me a new grinder, everybody should get powertools for christmas! Hybrid i think you missed my point, i realise that 24s are stronger than 10s and why. Although you fail to mention that 24 splines are also better because there is more surface area of spline touching spline, therefore wear is reduced. And this is why the 'core size' can be bigger What i mean is are 24 spline V8 (or military spec) stronger than 24 spline normal, ie 300tdi onwards Seasons greetings Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 What i mean is are 24 spline V8 (or military spec) stronger than 24 spline normal, ie 300tdi onwards Nick Nope Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 I believe they are. I'm not aware of any testing, but it is rare to hear of the early "HD" 24 spline shafts breaking. The newer 24 spline shafts are made of cheese as they break quite easily. If you look at Ashcroft's test here: http://217.34.53.228:9876/uploads/BILLING%20HALFSHAFT%20FRONT%20GRAPH.pdf you will see that the later model 24 spline shafts are not any stronger than the 10 spline, in fact they were weaker. If they were the same materials, the 24 spline should be around 35% stronger. 24 spline being stronger has to due solely with being a larger section and nothing to do with number and style of splines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 It would be great to see someone do a test, but unfortunately all of the testing is done by people that sell shafts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 To get a little more into the technical aspects. The straight breaking strength of a shaft is proportional directly to the polar section within the splined area and the tensile strength of the materials used. 10 spline shafts have a polar section of 0.212 23 spline is 0.294 0.294/0.212 = 1.39, so 39% stronger if made of the same materials. Based on the Ashcroft testing the later model 24 spline shafts must use a material much weaker than the 10 spline shafts. I suspect the early "HD" shafts are built properly and thus are most likely that 39% stronger than the newer shafts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Yes there IS such a thing as a V8 Halfshaft, I've had'em in my own hands as my brother is running them. They are thicker in the shaft itself. If you look at a shaft from a TDI you will notice that it is thinner in the middle section that it is at the splines in the ends. A V8 shaft is not as thin albeit still thinner than at the splines. Sadly I don't have any measures. And the salisbury is the ultimate (LR wise that is) As its the same dimension ALL the way. If you've ever seen a TDI shaft snap you will notice that it doesn't do it at the splines like a 10 spline but somewhere along the middle section. This is because they made it this ridiculously thin, it's actually only 1 mm thicker than a 10 spline! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 As long as the thinner (wasted) section has a polar section the same or larger than the splined are, it will not reduce the braking strength of the shaft. I'm sure the difference in strength is due to the materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Hmm i'm pretty sure we misunderstand eachother Red90. The wasted part of the axle IS NOT as large or larger than the splines on any 24 spline LR axle EXCEPT Salisbury. That's my point. Maybe I just dont understand your post though.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forestrynick Posted December 28, 2009 Author Share Posted December 28, 2009 Thanks for the replies, had a feeling this would be the case (it appears 'they don't make em like the used to!') Didn't know that about salisbury shafts, that explains more why they are popular retro fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Hmm i'm pretty sure we misunderstand eachother Red90. The wasted part of the axle IS NOT as large or larger than the splines on any 24 spline LR axle EXCEPT Salisbury. That's my point. Maybe I just dont understand your post though.. No, I'm talking about the polar section being larger or the same as the splined section. A pure round shaft of the same polar section will be somewhere between the major and minor diameters of the splines. If you waste a shaft to the same polar section, the wasted portion should have exactly the same braking strength as the splines. When you make a shaft larger than that, then the splines are weaker than the shaft. Some axle designers believe that wasting the shaft to the same section as the splines makes the shaft more flexible without losing strength. The contend that this flexibility improves shock loading and fatigue resistance. The wasting also helps to reduce stress concentrations at the end of the splines. Others say rubbish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Okay then now we're on the same page BUT the wasted part on a TDI shaft is NOT as large in diameter as the splines. It is considerably smaller. I get your point and think you're right, but in this case the TDI shaft is simply made to small in OD where as I would guess the V8 HD shaft is about the same in OD as it is at the splines, or atleast closer to it. But I will say that there is one advantage in this mess. You dont get the problem with the twisted splines inside the gear, witch means your broken shaft is stuck. It's much easier to replace this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off Road Toad Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 It would be great to see someone do a test, but unfortunately all of the testing is done by people that sell shafts. The testing we had done for us was fully independant by a non biased organisation, it had to be as it was requested by MOD. The machine that did the testing is computer controlled and properly calibrated to rule out the human factor, testing alone cost us over 20k, we will continue to test all our future products in this fashion. The results are on our website. Funny enough results for 10 spline shafts were sxxt! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forestrynick Posted December 29, 2009 Author Share Posted December 29, 2009 The testing we had done for us was fully independant by a non biased organisation, it had to be as it was requested by MOD. The machine that did the testing is computer controlled and properly calibrated to rule out the human factor, testing alone cost us over 20k, we will continue to test all our future products in this fashion. The results are on our website. Funny enough results for 10 spline shafts were sxxt! Steve where abouts on your website? can,t find it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 http://www.kamdiffs.com/four_by_four.php?l=HD_Shafts&link=HD_Shafts0171 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicks90 Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 http://www.kamdiffs.com/military.php?l=HD_Shafts&link=HD_Shafts3550 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 The testing we had done for us was fully independant by a non biased organisation, it had to be as it was requested by MOD. The machine that did the testing is computer controlled and properly calibrated to rule out the human factor, testing alone cost us over 20k, we will continue to test all our future products in this fashion. The results are on our website. Funny enough results for 10 spline shafts were sxxt! Your website shows testing of the later model 24 spline shafts (TD5). The question being posed in this thread is whether or not the 23S axle "HD" shafts are stronger? Have you tested those shafts? What I was saying above is that the manufacturers do not want to test these earlier shafts because they are probably stronger and would not make their products look that appealing. I would love for you to prove me wrong. The shafts we would like to know about are FRC8094 and FRC8095. And, of course, it would be great to see testing on genuine and aftermarket ones due to the large price difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forestrynick Posted December 31, 2009 Author Share Posted December 31, 2009 Your website shows testing of the later model 24 spline shafts (TD5). The question being posed in this thread is whether or not the 23S axle "HD" shafts are stronger? Have you tested those shafts? What I was saying above is that the manufacturers do not want to test these earlier shafts because they are probably stronger and would not make their products look that appealing. I would love for you to prove me wrong. The shafts we would like to know about are FRC8094 and FRC8095. And, of course, it would be great to see testing on genuine and aftermarket ones due to the large price difference. i second that, but don't think its going to happen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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