V8 SU -> EFi conversion

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Well, …………… its definitely not part of the flapper EFI system…………..

I suspect its either part of the aircon control, because the thermostat housing is the one used for aircon fans…………. or it might have been part of the cruise control actuator ……… I would suggest that you could remove it OK

Looks like a label on the side …………. What does it say ?

Ian

[HoSS]

Looks like a label on the side …………. What does it say ?

Ian

It just shows a direction arrow and says '12V'. I'll try to see where the piping went to later.

Going back to your previous reply of 27 July : The idle air valve - how is it connected? You implied in series with the fuel pump, which sounds a bit strange. do you mean in parallel?

Is it always energised? or does it connect via a thermoswicth?

[Wattle]

"E" opens when the air con is switched on to allow more air into the plenum chamber to increase the tickover speed, my flapper has one.

Phil Watson

[HoSS]

"E" opens when the air con is switched on to allow more air into the plenum chamber to increase the tickover speed, my flapper has one.

Phil Watson

Ah ok, E can go in t' bin then. (sorry bad yorkshire impression moment, i'll get my coat)

cheers

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Yep …………… confirmed that is the aircon solenoid valve ….. bin time.

The EAV is wired from pin 34 on the ECU to the Fuel pump relay ….. I’ll post up the diagram later and also some lnks for good flapper info.

Ian

[HoSS]

Yep …………… confirmed that is the aircon solenoid valve ….. bin time.

The EAV is wired from pin 34 on the ECU to the Fuel pump relay ….. I’ll post up the diagram later and also some lnks for good flapper info.

Ian

Thanks again.

I'm not using the standard ECU, but a Megasquirt.

What i need to know is only - Is it powered all the time, or just below a certain temperature?

[HoSS]

Bull Bar? Anyone?

oh and p.s - are there supposed to be gaskets between the plenum cover / plenum base, and plenum base to manifold?

[HoSS]

A few questions i need answers to, before the pending manifold swap.

(Probably by the guru's - HFH, Bullbar, Fridge, Geoff B....)

1. Is the air valve needed at all when MS is being used?

2. If it is, is it powered all the time, or switched by a thermostat?

3. On the EFI engine, is there a breather hose from the LHS rocker cover? where does it go?

4. Are there gaskets between plenum cover to plenum, and plenum to manifold?

5. how different is the carb cam and the Efi cam? Will this cause any problems using the existing carb cam in the short term? ( I would plan to replace the cam in an overhaul before too long)

Thanks, HoSS

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Pt 3 is that drivers side or pass side ?

Pt 4 - no, use proper LR gaskey stuff, its white in colour and comes in a fluted red applicator

Pt 5. Carb cam has less bottonm end grunt than efi cam but ok to use

Nige

[HoSS]

Pt 3 is that drivers side or pass side ?

pass side. on carb engine each rocker breather goes to the carb above it.

need to know what efi has, so i can re-plumb

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

flapper has a big flame trap breather on the front driver rocker, other than than need to go and refresh me memory which at the mo has a bottle of shiraz rattling about in it

Nige

[HoSS]

flapper has a big flame trap breather on the front driver rocker, other than than need to go and refresh me memory which at the mo has a bottle of shiraz rattling about in it

Nige

Yeah can see that one in the photos, but cant see if the other side has one. and can't find it on any of the diagrams on rave.

I'll wait till you're a bit less full of grape juice, cheers

[Wattle]

The passenger side rocker cover as an air inlet filter attached at the back. It is best to fit the EFI rocker covers if you can get them.

Phil Watson

[FridgeFreezer]

A few questions i need answers to, before the pending manifold swap.

(Probably by the guru's - HFH, Bullbar, Fridge, Geoff B....)

1. Is the air valve needed at all when MS is being used?

2. If it is, is it powered all the time, or switched by a thermostat?

3. On the EFI engine, is there a breather hose from the LHS rocker cover? where does it go?

4. Are there gaskets between plenum cover to plenum, and plenum to manifold?

5. how different is the carb cam and the Efi cam? Will this cause any problems using the existing carb cam in the short term? ( I would plan to replace the cam in an overhaul before too long)

Thanks, HoSS

I'm a Guru! Where to I collect my hat and cape?

1. It depends, they do their job simply which is good although I blocked mine off and it was fine even from cold, just took maybe half a mile to idle without stalling but if you know you need to keep the revs up a tad you can drive with that in mind, or just start it and idle it stationary for a minute or two.

2. The Lucas ECU supposedly grounds it to turn it on (red/blue wire, pin 34) but I'd just ground it and call it done. The + side is switched on by the fuel pump relay.

3. The big flame trap that screws in goes to the plenum, the small one (other side near the bulkhead) is an air intake, has a tiny pinhole in it which often blocks (according to BBC) so check it out.

4. No, use a thin smear of RTV

5. No idea. No it won't cause problems. Stick a decent cam in (3.9 stock cams are a cheap upgrade, or get a sexercisey one. The power increase from EFi (V8 carb = 135bhp, V8 EFi = 165bhp) is down to correct fuelling more than cam. Drivability is better too.

[HoSS]

Thanks guys!

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Sorry Hoss, I missed your post asking for more wiring info on the EAV.

All the good books will tell you (or give the impression) that it is wired in series with the fuel pump. This is not the case and it is almost wired in parallel.

The FPR (Fuel Pump- Relay) is a 5 blade twin (I think they are called type B ), so therefore has two 87 blades ……….. 87 is the output part of the make contact.

One 87 blade goes to the Fuel pump ……… and the other side of the pump is permanent ground. The other 87 blade goes to the EAV ……… the EAV then picks up its ground from the ECU. So I assume ( I haven’t checked) that the ECU controls the EAV relative to the temperature sensor ………….. otherwise the EAV coil would be permanently energised. This is something that the coil was never intended to do. Once the engine is hot, the bimetal strip will hold it closed (i.e. no air bypass) due to its mounting position on the inlet manifold water jacket.

So to run this from MS, either you need a ground output that is engine temperature dependent, or you could perhaps control it from a timed relay. It would not need to differentiate between hot and cold starts …………… that is physically determined by the engine temperature and bimetal strip.

The operation of the valve is simple ……….. when the valve is cold the internal rotary vane allows extra air into the plenum ………. When the coil is energised, it heats a bimetal strip that slowly turns the rotary vane to stop the extra air flow. Once the engine has reached running temp then the coil can be disconnected as the engine temp will hold the bimetal strip in its operated position.

This is the circuit diagram

Here is a pictorial of the EAV wiring

How the EAV works

With regard to the cams ……….. it will only made a difference to the power that the engine will produce …………. I have the timing written down somewhere, the EFI cam is much longer duration in comparison to the carb cam.

Ian

[FridgeFreezer]

One 87 blade goes to the Fuel pump ……… and the other side of the pump is permanent ground. The other 87 blade goes to the EAV ……… the EAV then picks up its ground from the ECU. So I assume ( I haven’t checked) that the ECU controls the EAV relative to the temperature sensor ………….. otherwise the EAV coil would be permanently energised. This is something that the coil was never intended to do. Once the engine is hot, the bimetal strip will hold it closed (i.e. no air bypass) due to its mounting position on the inlet manifold water jacket.

So to run this from MS, either you need a ground output that is engine temperature dependent, or you could perhaps control it from a timed relay. It would not need to differentiate between hot and cold starts …………… that is physically determined by the engine temperature and bimetal strip.

TBH the last couple of MS installs I did I just gave it a permanent GND and no-one's complained yet. The first few I just blocked it off and disconnected it and that also works fine.

I don't know how it would work if you left it plumbed in and depowered, if the engine heat would be sufficient to close it at the right time.

I've never timed the Lucas ECU to see what it does with the EAV and when.

To do as BBC suggests, connect the MS FIDLE (Fast Idle) wire to a relay coil -ve side, other side to +12v ignition live and use the relay to ground the EAV. Either that or uprate the FIDLE transistor to a TIP120 or similar.

[HoSS]

TBH the last couple of MS installs I did I just gave it a permanent GND and no-one's complained yet. The first few I just blocked it off and disconnected it and that also works fine.

I don't know how it would work if you left it plumbed in and depowered, if the engine heat would be sufficient to close it at the right time.

I've never timed the Lucas ECU to see what it does with the EAV and when.

To do as BBC suggests, connect the MS FIDLE (Fast Idle) wire to a relay coil -ve side, other side to +12v ignition live and use the relay to ground the EAV. Either that or uprate the FIDLE transistor to a TIP120 or similar.

Hmm, i was thinking of trying to get hold of just the stepper idle valve from a later engine & then ditch this valve....

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

The EAV coil is about 35ohms …………so you are looking at less than 500mA draw.

Yes……. The EAV will operate on engine temp alone ……… but it is a slower process.

Ian.

[FridgeFreezer]

Hmm, i was thinking of trying to get hold of just the stepper idle valve from a later engine & then ditch this valve....

Why go stepper? It's more complicated, they are less reliable and once the engine's warmed up (~1 mile) it makes no difference.

If you want idle control for other reasons, consider fitting a Ford PWM idle valve, one wire control but variable and a cheap rip off from any Ford in a scrapyard (I hear there are a few out there )

[HoSS]

Help!

Plumbing issue.

The old carb manifold had 1 coolant pipe underneath with went to the back of the water pump.

The new EFI one has 2, where do the both go? Could someone look?

Also the second pipe has a small T coming off it (8mm) where does that go?

[edit] - bizzarely i cant match this pipe arrangement up with any of the diagrams in EPC...

[HoSS]

bump. anyone?

i'm itching to get on with the build, but wanna make certian of this plumbing first.

[FridgeFreezer]

If you look from the front (pulley) end of the engine, is the little pipe on the left or right? One some they have two pipes, on some they block one or both off...

The left one goes to the heater, the return goes into the front of the inlet manifold as far as I can remember... anyone confirm that? Where's Nige when you need him?

[HoSS]

If you look from the front (pulley) end of the engine, is the little pipe on the left or right? One some they have two pipes, on some they block one or both off...

The left one goes to the heater, the return goes into the front of the inlet manifold as far as I can remember... anyone confirm that? Where's Nige when you need him?

Have a look at my photos on page 2 of this thread.

It looked like the two pipes would go onto the two outlets on the water pump (one previously blocked off), but that cant be right as there would be no flow to the heater.

I don't know where they went on the engine this manifold came from. but i'm beginning to think after refering to the normal water flow diagrams from EPC, that i need to block of the rhs hose as it exits the manifold (that is heater feed, but it will get there from the other end) and put the LHC hose to the back of the water pump (heater return).

But if someone could confirm that they have 2 pipes & where they go, it would be great before i cut anything!

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Have a look at my photos on page 2 of this thread.

It looked like the two pipes would go onto the two outlets on the water pump (one previously blocked off), but that cant be right as there would be no flow to the heater.

I don't know where they went on the engine this manifold came from. but i'm beginning to think after refering to the normal water flow diagrams from EPC, that i need to block of the rhs hose as it exits the manifold (that is heater feed, but it will get there from the other end) and put the LHC hose to the back of the water pump (heater return).

But if someone could confirm that they have 2 pipes & where they go, it would be great before i cut anything!

Eveneininining all

Right colling routes there are many, and I can't rememebr what the engine is here, so I am going to cover the main 2 types.

Type 1 - 3.5 flapper

Has a pipe that runs UNDER the inlet manifold, and the hoses go to the back of the water pump timing case bit, 1 hose goes to the tube under the manifold, the other goes to the front of the manifold, and another tube comes out of the back, these 2 tubes out of the back go to the heater

Type 2. Very late 3.5 and all 3.9s

Although there are more variants in simple terms, you still have 2 hoses at the timing cover end, 1 is in the inlet manifold, and goes to the timing cover, the other part of the timing cover hole is blocked off, the 2 hosdes at the front go into a EXTERNAL 1/2 bore twin rail which goes alonmg the drivers rocker, and often has a tube under the manifold, thus the tube under the manifold goes to one tube, and the other either goes to the manifold tube or the tube from the timing cover. Not all have a tube underneath, not all timing covers are the asame, and you can't mix and match sometimes....

To be sure you need to check the engine number, as I have done 4 engines where the colloing was wrong as the mix and match parts were wrong !

Nige