Spearos Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 The other day on a piece of dual carriageway I was caught in some very slow moving traffic where for a long period of time I was travelling at approximately between approx 5 and 10mph. Now this was mostly done in 1st or 2nd gear with light, yet steady use of the throttle. Whilst 'crawling' along my 90 was juddering/kangarooing, almost like drive was being applied on and off with small surges forward - hard to explain, but if I let off the throttle or increased throttle it seemed to 'sort' it's self out. Would could be the cause of this? I'm guessing the likely cause is driveline slack/wear but from where? What kind of things should I check? Half shafts and drive members appear to have little play A frame ball joint ok UJs fine, no play in props I am worried that there is possibly extreme wear in my axles/transfer box but dont know where to start with assessing what wear there is. I have searched but tbh any answers I found have confused me further! Next chance I get I want to check the handbrake as I understand that can cause similar symptoms if it's dragging slightly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbw28 Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 I had a similar problem and got concerned - It turned out to be the handbrake sticking. I certainly would check this before moving on to more serious possibilities. Failing that its possibly transfer box input gear wear... do you know if you have a cross-drilled input gear or not as older defenders are renowned for this problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearos Posted May 19, 2013 Author Share Posted May 19, 2013 Fingers crossed it's the handbrake then! Embarrassingly enough I've never cleaned/inspected/adjusted the handbrake in the 5+ years I've had the Landie - it's gave me no grief, if it ain't broke don't fix it! I will check this out once I get chance, won't be any time soon though as I have 3 twelve hour shifts to do then off to Poland for 10 days... As for the cross drilled input gear I have no idea. AFAIK the transfer box is the original and has had no work carried out on it. Now, input gear? Would this be the gear that receives drive from the gearbox? I really need to do some reading/learning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Are you on carbs or injection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearos Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 Are you on carbs or injection? Carbs... Interesting question - I see the direction you're going with this... Possibly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbw28 Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Yeah, again similar to me, I just ignored the handbrake. Its a very basic drum and shoe design and sometime the shoes (when the mechanism is old and full of gunk) don't get pulled in properly meaning they rub the drum slightly when the handbrake is 'off'. A good test which takes 10seconds is when you release the handbrake does to go all the way down and sit there, or does it sort of have a bit of springy resistance and not sit all the way down? If it does sit all the way down it still could be the handbrake, but if it doesn't sit all the way down there is a much higher chance it's the handbrake as it isn't disengaging properly. You would notice the problem when moving slowly especially when coasting and changing speed quickly, ie what you describe! Re transfer box input gear, yes it's the gear that receives drive from the main gearbox. On older models (I'm not sure when the cut off is) the splines of the gear suffered lack of lubrication b/c oil couldn't get there. LR later solved this problem by cross-drilling the gear so oil could reach the splines. You can fit the later gear however due to the nature of the problem if the splines on the gear are damaged your gearbox output shaft would probably also be damaged basically meaning a rec-con gearbox!!! Here are some photos of the gear, you can see where the gearbox shaft fits into it. This was my old non crossdrilled gear and you can see the red paste stuff inside on the splines which is not a good sign of oil starvation. The gear itself is not damaged. Lets hope it's the handbrake, which it sounds like it is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearos Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 Many thanks for the explanation/clarification Jackbw28 - I had read about the improved cross drilled gear, but didn't realise that if the gearbox shaft is fecked it means that much more than just a replacement gear will be needed!! From memory the hand brake does need to be manually lowered to the rest position, I will double check tonight when I leave work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbw28 Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 No worries Spearos. Yep, if the gearbox output/main shaft is damaged/worn you need to replace it, which means disassembling the gearbox and if your going to go that far it may as-well be rebuilt! Fortunately however having damaged splines on your input get does not always mean your gearbox output shaft is damaged. In that photo above the input gear splines were worn (slightly) but the gearbox output shaft was fine. I'm not sure of the shaft is of a harder material or not, but reckon if its bad they are probably both fecked! Another very quick handbrake check is to rotate the drum. For a quick test you dont even need bother jacking anything up, put the box in neutral, disengage the handbrake, lean under the car and rotate the handbrake drum back and forth. It wont rotate all the way around if all wheels are on the ground however if its bad you will feel it sticking in the 45degrees or so it will rotate. If its sticks yank the cable or pivot thing where the cable connects and see if it frees it up. If its stuck this will work 99% of the time. After you yank the cable the drum should move freely for the 45degrees and in the cab the handbrake lever should now sit at the lowest position without the springy resistance. If you then don't use the handbrake hopefully you wont get the juddering. When you use the handbrake it will get stuck again! This happened to me and I must have driven for about 6months without using the handbrake until I fixed it properly! This isnt a conclusive test but if time is tight worth doing as it may find your problem. If it doesn't a better test is with the T-box in neutral jack up a rear wheel and rotate the hand brake drum to test for sticking. Remember with the prop-shaft still connected you will feel viscous drag of the rear axle and diff, which is not sticking. Best of all whip off the rear prop and repeat! Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearos Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 Thanks again Jack, very comprehensive! I'll give it a turn by hand and see what it feels like. I think once I get chance I will take the handbrake drum off anyway and clean/inspect/adjust the handbrake as even if it isn't sticking it will be of benefit, plus I'm a little nosey and want to 'discover' another little part of my 90! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbw28 Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 Have you had a chance to have a quick look Spearos?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heath robinson Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 I too have had the handbrake issue. The little doober that splits the cable's force onto the brake shoes (doober is the officail turm I believe) can sieze, either on or off, depending on how the mood takes it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markoteal Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 I also would vote handbrake - your "symptoms" happened to me recently - the adjusts outlined above will help sort it out - especially if you give it an inspection and general clean up Let us know how you get on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearos Posted May 24, 2013 Author Share Posted May 24, 2013 The other day I had a little feel of the handbrake drum and it felt free, so I'm now thinking (hoping) that it is only sticking intermitantly perhaps? The lever definitely doesn't drop to the floor on it's own. Once I'm back from Poland I pland to 'get in there' and inspect/clean/adjust. Will report back then! Cheers for the input guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 On the handbrake subject, the handbrake cable attaches to a metal lever on the front face of the handbrake drum. This lever and its parts should sit firmly in the handbrake drum - it is held in place by thin metal clips. Sometimes these break or rust away allowing the lever mechanism to move up and down a little, which then lets the brake shoes move even when the handbrake lever is fully off - this will make the brake grab as you describe. look for the metal rod coming out of the handbrake drum, it comes through a small metal block with a rubber cover - this is the part you need to make sure is firm, not the rod. Hope that makes sense! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearos Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 Ok... Finally managed to get the drum off and have a look - all looks fine, remarkable clean/free from carp as you can see - Whilst the drum was off, I operated by hand the lever the cable attaches to and observed the shoes moving and returning. They appeared to move freely, although the little piston mechanism (on the right in pic) did seem a little dry. I guess the only thing that really could be deemed necessary is if this was cleaned and greased - IIRC this can be overhauled? So, does it look like the handbrake isn't the cause of this 'stuttering'? Where should I look now? On the handbrake subject, the handbrake cable attaches to a metal lever on the front face of the handbrake drum.This lever and its parts should sit firmly in the handbrake drum - it is held in place by thin metal clips. Sometimes these break or rust away allowing the lever mechanism to move up and down a little, which then lets the brake shoes move even when the handbrake lever is fully off - this will make the brake grab as you describe. look for the metal rod coming out of the handbrake drum, it comes through a small metal block with a rubber cover - this is the part you need to make sure is firm, not the rod. Hope that makes sense! Onlt just seen your reply eightpot and TBH I'm not entirely sure which bit you mean, but I am sure if I have a good look at the linkage (it's pretty messy from memory) it'll all become clear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dailysleaze Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 I think he means these thin clips: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearos Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 Good man dailysleaze, I now know exactly what I'm looking for! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Yep, those are the clips - if that bit can be wobbled about it will let the bottom shoe drag and bounce off the drum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearos Posted June 28, 2013 Author Share Posted June 28, 2013 I have to admit I haven't got round to checking these clips - so many things on my 'to do' list at the moment. However, when I replaced the drum it was a bit tight to install so I loosened the adjuster one notch and so far I haven't experienced the juddering. So, although the drum rotated freely before removal perhaps the 'tight' handbrake exaggerated the movement of the bottom show caused by a loose clip. Either way, the fact it now appears ok would suggest that the judder is/was caused by the handbrake so if it's back I know the first place I'll be looking! It did cross my mind the other day, is it possible that play/wear in the transmission even cause this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litch Posted June 28, 2013 Share Posted June 28, 2013 I had a similar problem on my 300TDi 90 earlier this year and I found the solution in my instance was both cheap (i.e. no cost) and easy to rectify. The accelerator cable had too much play in it and as soon as the vehicle started to judder the action just got worse until you let the throttle off completely or applied more pedal. This was worse if you were on rough ground where maintaining steady throttle pressure was not always easy. I adjusted the play out using the knurled plastic adjuster and hey presto, problem cured! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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