Belgian_Dude Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Hi guys, need some help tuning me new 4,6L V8 build: 4.0 block, 4.0 pistons 4.6 crank & conrods all-new bearings (main, big-end, cam) and rings honed cilinders mildly ported heads shimmed rockers for correct preload high-torque cam from V8Tuner I've started it successfully on the map that used to run my 3,5, and have started a new tune I think based on some map downloaded on this forum ... probably Nige's. These are my current settings, after a few cycles of logging / tuning (both offline and "autotune") CurrentTune.msq I believe the values are ... a bit off, to say the least. When starting from the base map, it didn't make any power. I added fuel, and immediately felt more which was good but now, everything tells me to keep adding more fuel .... However, despite the floods of fuel going in, it's not "picking up" well, it all feels a bit dull and well frankly, not quite worth the upgrade from my tired old 3.5. I've also attached my last 3.5 map, which I think ran reasonably well but felt "tired" mechanically (although I'm doubting that right now ...). Squirt, fuel rail, injectors, fuel pump, FP regulator, etc. all remained identical. I've also attached a log. 2014-12-14_17.07.30.msl.pdf (not a pdf obviously) please let me know what you need (I've loads of logs and maps and whatnot) and what are the suggested actions to be taken ... If someone has a map for a 4.6 that would be much appreaciated as well ... thx, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belgian_Dude Posted December 16, 2014 Author Share Posted December 16, 2014 some more info: I've done loads and loads of reading on MS the 1st time I fitted it, and once again now; I tuned my 3.5 to "more than good enough" and drove it to Russia twice, never missed a beat. however, now, I'm at a loss as to what direction to go in, and I'm also much more afraid to screw up my new engine than I ever was my old 3.5 ... (running lean, knocking, etc.) I can type up pages and pages of "story" behind it, what I've tried etc. but I'm not sure it'll help - I'll gladly answer any question though, and don't expect anything on a silver platter ;-) basically, it started immediately, didn't go into revs until upping the fuel, and now it just wants to keep getting more but doesn't feel like it's driving better + I can't wrap my head around why it would be needing 2,5 times the fuel the 3.5liter engine did ... engine constants being equal. Looking at the logs, it seems indeed the fuel at 250-something is actually being used, as when it dropped off to 130-something (the less tuned part of the map) the O2 values dropped to lean ... which settings, besides engine constants, have a big impact on fueling? any guidance appreated! thx, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 What's your required fuel on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuck Posted December 16, 2014 Share Posted December 16, 2014 Have you checked what fuel pressure you have at the plenum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belgian_Dude Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 ReqFuel is "20" (calculator gives about 18,something so I rounded up) this becomes 10ms since my injector staging is set to alternating - when I change that to simultaneous, it becomes 5ms, so surely this can't matter ?? See screenshot above for all details. haven't checked the pressure. I could, but only without fuel pressure regulator since I'm using a Thor fuel rail which has only one input, no output, so I'm using the pressure nipple as a return ... (obviously removed the pressure valve) this however worked flawlessly on the 3,5 .... the fuel pump is a standard injection 3,5 one, and the injectors are Thor. This is a bit of a questionmark, as I know my FP is running a lower pressure than the thor one (about 2,5bar (theoretical pressure, will try to measure)) vs. 3,5bar for the Thor FP, but I can't find injector specs @ 3,5 bar ... but then again: worked well on the 3,5 engine. I'll try and measure the pressure, perhaps see if I can swap in some Gems injectors or something like that, but I've always read "any modern injector can flow enough" .... thx for the input, Quentin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 What's the known state of the lambda? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belgian_Dude Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 What's the known state of the lambda? it's switching ... I've had broken lambda before, which made it stop switching at all and stick rich or lean ... this one, as indicated in the logs, switches at realistic moments. I can swap it, I've a few spare (new), but besides looking at the logs how can I tell it's working well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 OK cool You can test them with a meter and a blowlamp, but if you are pretty confident it is working, then you could run with it -thing is though, if it is contaminated then it doesn't always stop switching, sometimes it just mucks up the reading, making MS think it is either too lean or too rich.... Does your new build smoke at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 When you have been tunning - has there been any water / rain etc are the roads used all 100% BONE DRY ?? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belgian_Dude Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 didn't know, I'll look up how to test a lambda by the weekend and perhaps just swap it out, all of 5 mins work. Smoke: none, except when blipped/revved after sitting idle for a while, it'll puff out grey/black "angry" smoke but never whilst driving, that I can tell anyway. tuning's been done dry - good point but I followed operating procedure ;-) thx, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belgian_Dude Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 Allright, time to give some feedback Started out today by testing the lambda on a blowtorch, and it didn't seem to react quite as quickly / well as expected, so swapped that for a new one and went for a drive. started out with the base map again, and quickly ran out of juice again: values up to 200 VE and still running lean in the top end. then, Elbekko noticed the pulse width was up to 25-26ms, which apparently is some kind of maximum (I still have to read op on that ) anyway, I set the injector staging to Simultaneous instead of Alternating, which if I get it should give each injector basically twice the time to inject the required fuel, and the motor felt much happier, snappier and quick! (req fuel changed itself to 5ms from 10 so no change in volume) only tested that for about 10 minutes when I had to leave, but this seems to be a major improvement! working theory is that THOR injectors, combined with the Flapper fuel pump and regulator, don't flow enough to feed the 4,6 at WOT. will test more tomorrow, but already wanted to thank you guys for the input - the lambda definitely switches much better than the old one - I thought as long as it switched it was good, but was proven wrong! greetz, Q. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 then, Elbekko noticed the pulse width was up to 25-26ms, which apparently is some kind of maximum (I still have to read op on that ) Actually, it was going up to around 23-24ms, which is damn close to the 25.4ms limit I found a good explanation on it once, but can't find it anymore now... working theory is that THOR injectors, combined with the Flapper fuel pump and regulator, don't flow enough to feed the 4,6 at WOT. Which would be logical, since the Thor/Bosch injectors were designed to flow about the same amount as the GEMS injectors, but at 3.5 bar instead of 2.5. I'd stick in an external fuel pump, as the Bosch pumps are pretty spendy and probably don't fit your tank. I should have a non-pump fuel pickup somewhere that may fit too, from the TDi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belgian_Dude Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 I just checked out the last few logs, and it al seems much better now with Simultaneous injector staging PW now tops out at about 16ms, whereas in the old logs I see values up to 25,5 %also O2 is now cleanly switching, and Gego runs between 85% and 102% indicating it's now rather rich than lean wich is a good thing will do some more tuning today, and report back - hopefully it should now start going like the firebreathing 4,6 I hoped it to be if it does, and it remains below 20ms PW, I see no reason to start fiddling with pumps ... I can't think of any downsides to simultaneous injector staging, am I missing something? Fuel is just waiting around anyway ... and economy is not one of the goals of this build ! grtz, Q. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Apparently the timing being 40-50 degrees out also doesn't help, it's running the same system as described in this thread, based on Zim's earlier install. We'd taken the trim angle of 20 from him, and it did run (somehow!), but a sound we thought to be something seriously wrong in the gearbox turned out to be massive pinging... So with the trim angle set to -20 (so realistically probably -10, since EDIS can't do negative advance), it goes a lot better now. So Zim, maybe something you want to check in yours as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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