Souster Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Is that a yes ? Mo Is what a yes Mo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 As described above you need a lever of some sort to lift the weight of the wheel/brakes/hub to detect the play either a long pry bar, length of 2x3 or a trolley jack handle. If you take the brake pads out or push them back a touch, then with the wheel still on jack the vehicle corner around 2-3 inches up off the floor, lift the wheel up with the lever underneath to raise the wheel. any clunking or knocking is potentially play or bearing issues. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Is that a yes ? Mo Sorry my mistake, I misread a previous post. I retract the question ? Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souster Posted May 12, 2015 Author Share Posted May 12, 2015 Right guys, bit of an update. This evening I adjusted the bearings on all four wheels (jacked up vehicle with wheels on and removed drive flanges). I started with passenger front and adjusted the pre load as per the Rave workshop manual. Same with drivers side front. Then moved to the rear and did one at a time to find the preload that the Rave manual states wasn't enough for the rear bearings to take out the play. So I tightened the preload nut as tight as it would go before the wheel started binding. Then lowered the vehicle off the jack to find no difference with the rears really. Anyway, took it for a road test, the pedal was still intermittent. Went around the vehicle again rocking the wheels hard in the 12 o clock position, to find the drivers side front had movement and was making a clicking sound when rocked. Which dissappeared when the brake pedal was pressed (could be pad retainers). Drive flange came off again, scrapped the Rave manual and just tightened the bearings up as tight as it would go before excessively binding. This was 120Nm!!! (new bearings few months back) Went out again on a road test, and in general driving it did seem considerably better. I could live with it like that even though it wasn't perfect! (But the bearings aren't going to last long) However, still when reversing or cornering at slow speeds, the pedal travel increases. Any body got a clue? Should the play at the wheels be exactly the same with brakes applied, and just sitting normal, Basically no play? Last thing I do want to add... The rear caliper on the passenger side, sits over to one side. For example, it doesn't sit central on the disc. It sits closer to the diff. So I spaced the caliper off the axle casing holes with some fine washers, it's closer than it was. But not perfect! Can anyone help me? I'm p***ing into the wind with this problem. It's driving me crazy. Any help would be greatly appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Don't leave the bearings tight, if they don't run freely once you have taken the slack out (by backing them off at least a flat) you will have real trouble with heat expansion and poss stub axle damage. I'd suggest if you have one corner really poor renew the offending bearings making sure the races and the seats are super clean and damage free before you press the bearings in, don't excessivley grease the bearings. The calipers never sit exactly bang on central, at least in my experience 1-1.5mm is what I have found. The play should be very slight(barely detectable), obviously with the brakes hard on, the disc is held solid between the caliper so you won't get an idea of what it's like, hence back off the pads and test it with a lever to shift the weight of the wheel, the hub and the brakes. Stupid question but which washers are you using on your stub axles, any chance of some photos. Front's are different to rears and vary a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souster Posted May 12, 2015 Author Share Posted May 12, 2015 Don't leave the bearings tight, if they don't run freely once you have taken the slack out (by backing them off at least a flat) you will have real trouble with heat expansion and poss stub axle damage. I'd suggest if you have one corner really poor renew the offending bearings making sure the races and the seats are super clean and damage free before you press the bearings in, don't excessivley grease the bearings. The calipers never sit exactly bang on central, at least in my experience 1-1.5mm is what I have found. The play should be very slight(barely detectable), obviously with the brakes hard on, the disc is held solid between the caliper so you won't get an idea of what it's like, hence back off the pads and test it with a lever to shift the weight of the wheel, the hub and the brakes. Stupid question but which washers are you using on your stub axles, any chance of some photos. Front's are different to rears and vary a bit. Thanks Pete. I've done tons of research again tonight. Bit the bullet and bought new bearings and stub axle for the front drivers side. After reading this thread .... http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=94036&view=&hl=&fromsearch=1 The passenger side wheel bearings have preloaded perfectly with the Rave workshop manual. The two rears didn't seem to want that though, they needed more torque. I'm really clutching at straws with the amount of play I'm talking about for the rear as well. I've felt much worse on vehicles with no brake issues. As for the spacers or washers. I'm just using the old ones. And replacing the lock tab washers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Yes the bearings on the stub axles should be a sliding fit, i.e no detectable play, the washers are different front to back. The front stub has a slot cut in and uses a thick G shaped washer, then a nut/lockwasher then another nut. Depending on the year pre 300tdi The rear on the 110 uses a flat profile washer FRC8227 which runs onto the bearing and the oil seal then a tab washer, nut, lockwasher, and another nut. Check if you have the spacer, depending on your age of axle/stub axles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 One last thought for now, you haven't clamped you stainless flexis at any point have you? I ditched my braided stainless hoses and went back to standard after I found the stainless hoses utterly useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souster Posted May 13, 2015 Author Share Posted May 13, 2015 Yes the bearings on the stub axles should be a sliding fit, i.e no detectable play, the washers are different front to back. The front stub has a slot cut in and uses a thick G shaped washer, then a nut/lockwasher then another nut. Depending on the year pre 300tdi The rear on the 110 uses a flat profile washer FRC8227 which runs onto the bearing and the oil seal then a tab washer, nut, lockwasher, and another nut. Check if you have the spacer, depending on your age of axle/stub axles. this is the set up ive got pete. Page 499 http://www.retroanaconda.com/landrover/parts_books/90/6_axles_suspension_engine_controls_p475-580.pdf ive got everything that is shown there. I havent clamped flexis no, whether someone else has is another story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Bear with me putting thoughts down on paper... For the pedal to move further down, you need to have had a volume change in the system... Reason for actual volume change: Leak Brake actuation - (i.e pistons moving out) Flexible pipes Ballooning Poorly adjusted drum brakes (which you haven't got) G-valve - this stops/regulates flow of fluid to the rear callipers, if not operating properly it can cause an increase in volume of system as it opens up the rear callipers for operation... (I wonder if the valve part is opening when you're turning allowing an increase in volume of brake fluid volume... - long shot...) Reasons for "apparent" volume change - (i.e. the pedal moving down a bit) Uneven servo assistance (leaky servo or poor pump) - tested without vacuum attached, still same. Poorly adjusted wheel bearings which allow a change in volume of the system. Master cylinder bi-passing Intermittently... (can't link this to turning corners) Conclusions: Can you 100% say that the pedal changes when you're cornering and you said rough ground... could tie in with the G-valve theory, due to the internals dependant on gravity and movement etc... Rubber hoses are not happy and are constricting fluid flow during turning (but wouldn't explain the rough ground) Dodgy master cylinder - debris seals been influenced by gravity causing uneven control... Thinking points to a dodgy G-valve, whats the straight line breaking like, can you manage to lock up the rear brakes at all? (if yes then points to dodgy G valve too) Other potential tests you can perform are, using a bleed nipple(s) to block off each port on the master cylinder, isolating the front brakes, then the back, etc, to see what happens... by isolating you will be able to work out if the master is bi-passing... and might show up if the G valve is acting the goat too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souster Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share Posted May 14, 2015 Bear with me putting thoughts down on paper... For the pedal to move further down, you need to have had a volume change in the system... Reason for actual volume change: Leak Brake actuation - (i.e pistons moving out) Flexible pipes Ballooning Poorly adjusted drum brakes (which you haven't got) G-valve - this stops/regulates flow of fluid to the rear callipers, if not operating properly it can cause an increase in volume of system as it opens up the rear callipers for operation... (I wonder if the valve part is opening when you're turning allowing an increase in volume of brake fluid volume... - long shot...) Reasons for "apparent" volume change - (i.e. the pedal moving down a bit) Uneven servo assistance (leaky servo or poor pump) - tested without vacuum attached, still same. Poorly adjusted wheel bearings which allow a change in volume of the system. Master cylinder bi-passing Intermittently... (can't link this to turning corners) Conclusions: Can you 100% say that the pedal changes when you're cornering and you said rough ground... could tie in with the G-valve theory, due to the internals dependant on gravity and movement etc... Rubber hoses are not happy and are constricting fluid flow during turning (but wouldn't explain the rough ground) Dodgy master cylinder - debris seals been influenced by gravity causing uneven control... Thinking points to a dodgy G-valve, whats the straight line breaking like, can you manage to lock up the rear brakes at all? (if yes then points to dodgy G valve too) Other potential tests you can perform are, using a bleed nipple(s) to block off each port on the master cylinder, isolating the front brakes, then the back, etc, to see what happens... by isolating you will be able to work out if the master is bi-passing... and might show up if the G valve is acting the goat too... Thanks Maverik for your in depth help and response. The brake G valve (pressure relief valve) has been replaced for an AP item by a good land rover specialist. This was replaced due to rusty rear discs which seems to be solved. The flexi hoses are 6 months old stainless braided lines... I can't see any leaks at any union, connection or caliper. Bearing in mind they are all OEM Calipers too. I've decided to replace the front right stub axle and bearings , been as I have to torque the bearings up reallt tight before the play reduces. The play never fully dissappears. To rule out inconsistent servo or vacuum pump, I disconnected the vacuum pipe from the servo. And drove up and down a private road. Obviously the pedal was harder, but I could still feel the pedal travel increase on turning, and possibly reversing. I'm still not sure about the rear caliper being of set on the disc too. Any ideas for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souster Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 Bit of an update guys. Since my last reply. I've replaced the front drivers side, and rear passenger side stub axle and bearings. The new stub axle/bearings has cured the rear caliper not sitting central on the disc. Pleased I finally got to the bottom of that, and that caliper will now be braking efficiently and not on the skew. I've also replaced the vacuum pump and non return valve. The brakes feel good now during normal driving. And so they should, everything is new in the braking system. Costly but worthwhile. Unfortunately, when turning sharply, either way (left hand lock more so). The brake pedal travel increases. This still happens after stubs and bearing replacements. And the other two hubs adjusted. Same with off road!! I do second guess myself but I'm certain there is no bearing play at all. There's nothing else left that it can be is there? Any thoughts or live with it?! Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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