S3 petrol 2.25 radiator 3 or 4 row

[jessejazza]

Just been out for a spin to find that the head gasket appears to be weeping. Since I have had her on the road the temp gauge has settled at about 3/4 up short of red by 2-3 mm and I have thought that it is just the sender. It was only a short spin just to get her fully warmed up and didn't boil up but I could hear gurgling when I opened the bonnet on my return.

I fitted the new rad that I had which I now discover is a 3 core in line channels. The other landy I have has 4 core staggered channels. Looking at two known suppliers websites it seems one can have either 3 or 4 core for a 2.25 petrol but I would guess that the 4 core is for petrol and 3 core for diesel (petrol runs hotter I think ?). Another problem could be the thermostat but I fitted a new one along with new hoses and tested it and all seemed fine.

Be grateful if someone could just clarify:

a] It would seem a 4 core rad is what should be fitted and the temp gauge should be sitting at halfway.

b] I have read that one can fit a copper or composite head gasket. It would seem that the composite one STC1567G (Payan) would be best choice. A copper one at £3 Britpart to me wouldn't seem worth fitting but there may be quality copper ones available.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by jessejazza

[Snagger]

4-core was for tropical climates or optional for HD use (lots of towing, lots of idling with a PTO running and so on).  Three core should be ok in the UK, though most would prefer 4.

Definitely go for the composite gasket.

What is the condition of the exhaust?  Check it for dents and corrosion in the muffler box (in addition to checking tapped clearances and timing) to make sure the engine can breathe properly - that can be a cause of high temperatures.

[jessejazza]

1 hour ago, Snagger said:

4-core was for tropical climates or optional for HD use (lots of towing, lots of idling with a PTO running and so on).  Three core should be ok in the UK, though most would prefer 4.

Definitely go for the composite gasket.

What is the condition of the exhaust?  Check it for dents and corrosion in the muffler box (in addition to checking tapped clearances and timing) to make sure the engine can breathe properly - that can be a cause of high temperatures.

Many thanks for the reply. I wondered if the 3 core was ok and 4 core for HD use. The 3 core is NEW.... but shouldn't be running at 3/4 high. At present I am attempting to clean up the 4 core and I'll fit that. Can't think of any reason why the temp should be so high... perhaps the 3 core rad is from Britpart! I have an expansion bottle for extra water rather than the original "catch bowl" (never found the suck back through the rad cap idea worked that well).

Thinking of using bars leaks just to get me through until spring. May attempt the head gasket over Xmas we'll see.

[steve b]

Are you running the standard metal fan and cowl ? A laser thermometer ~ £30 or so is a great addition to the tool box to check the actual temperature . A cheaper and simple alternative would be temperature stickers , some stuck in appropriate places in the 70c - 90c range will tell you exactly what temp. it's running at .

A high gauge reading can be a bad earth of the dash panel , faulty voltage stabiliser (back of speedo) or faulty sender , everything being right it should read middle at normal temp. There are Sniff test kits to check for combustion gases in the coolant available to be sure of a leaking HG

cheers

Steve b   

[Snagger]

Steve makes a good point - there are quite a few people advising owners to remove the fan, especially on Tdis.  Some people fit electric fans, and some of those may be too small, maladjusted, set too far from the rad or have other problems making them ineffective.  But as Steve mentions, the cowl is also important - not so much the steel bit behind the fan, but certainly the plastic part that is screwed to the rad.  Without it, the fan just stirs the air behind the rad instead of pulling air through it.

You also need to check the water pump and replace the thermostat.  A three row rad should keep even a hard working 2.25 cool in the current UK weather.

[jessejazza]

Call me a sausage!

Got round to investigating today. It was the thermostat. I fitted a new 82 deg and did the saucepan test when I put her on the road so I didn't suspect the thermostat. I must say I have read about folk who have had problems but I never have... for 30 years (on any motor). I have had airlocks. One thing I believe in is drilling a 3mm hole in the thermostat flange. Over the years I have noticed how the different manufacturers have varied the product; had the jiggle pin, very small hole, or no hole. This new thermostat had a very small hole which I doubt would have let much air past. The hole is also the bypass on a LR... without it and in summer when the heater is shut an air lock will build up on starting. I put it in the boiling saucepan and it didn't move an all - yet when pressed with a screwdriver seemed to open but only part way.

As I am fairly desperate to be on the road tomorrow I robbed the thermostat from my LWB - it's a 74 deg but I've not found much difference I just fit the higher temp as that shortens warm up time. The temp went to 1/2 way and stayed there so the sender (and voltage stabiliser) seems ok. I just wondered about the 3 core/4 core rad choice - presumably someone with a PTO giving it hard work and LR being stationary would need the extra cooling option. I don't know how many folk stick with the original expansion bottle - I've not found the suction back works that well so I have a single nozzle entry tank (flat cap on rad) which fills with the water temp increase but sucks back to the engine on cooling... rad always kept full. I did try a header tank but the LR rad is high up so the intended concept is not so good.

It would seem the quality of thermostats varies - I'd rather spend £15-£20 and have a quality item that lasts the life of the motor. LR ones for £5 is not good.

[Snagger]

The standard expansion bottle works very well, but only if the hose is not split or perforated and the rad filler neck and cap are in good order to seal correctly.  If any of those parts can leak air (which is easier to occur and harder to detect than leaking water), then the rad will just suck air rather than water back in as the system cools.

[lo-fi]

Waxstat or Gates seem to be about the best thermostats from my experience. As said already, 3 row is quite adequate in this climate on a moderately worked vehicle. 

[jessejazza]

12 hours ago, lo-fi said:

Waxstat or Gates seem to be about the best thermostats from my experience. As said already, 3 row is quite adequate in this climate on a moderately worked vehicle. 

It seems the main Land Rover parts folk are selling Britpart, Bearmach or Allmakes which after doing a google seems to lead to heating problems on series, Defender, Discovery and Freelander. The Land Rover parts world seems to be inundated with buy cheap - just not worth it. I've just gone to a local motor factor in the past and bought Quinton Hazell or whatever and never had a problem... but I'll look out for Gates now. I wondered if it was the same thing with a 3 row rad but now with a working thermostat I have had her fine - temp at halfway.

[lo-fi]

1 hour ago, jessejazza said:

The Land Rover parts world seems to be inundated with buy cheap - just not worth it.

Sadly, people keep buying those cheap parts... Eventually the supply of decent stuff dries up and the cheap garbage is all we'll be left with. It's quite worrying and seems particularly bad in land rover circles. 

[Snagger]

2 hours ago, lo-fi said:

Sadly, people keep buying those cheap parts... Eventually the supply of decent stuff dries up and the cheap garbage is all we'll be left with. It's quite worrying and seems particularly bad in land rover circles. 

I read an editorial saying much the same in one of the LR mags, stuffed with Britpart ads.  Not so much ironic as hypocritical.

[lo-fi]

#TripleFacePalm

I found the Waxstat to be the absolute best in terms of temp stability, followed a very close second by Gates. I have a nice VDO gauge in my 109, so temp variations really show up compared to the standard gauge. Waxstat used to be what you've get in a Land Rover genuine box... 

[jessejazza]

On 12/17/2019 at 12:11 PM, Snagger said:

The standard expansion bottle works very well, but only if the hose is not split or perforated and the rad filler neck and cap are in good order to seal correctly.  If any of those parts can leak air (which is easier to occur and harder to detect than leaking water), then the rad will just suck air rather than water back in as the system cools.

I don't disagree but it didn't work well on Scimitars and was not that good on my Herald. Gunge tends to get in around the rad cap pin. Pic *625 (1st pic) is what I have at present. Pic *131 (3rd pic) shows 3 rad caps (just happened to have them handy) but as you know only the one on the RIGHT will work for that set up - some come with both seals, some no pin (left) but both seals.

Ideally one has a "header tank" (2nd pic) rather than an expansion bottle (as I have at present) and conveniently one gets no airlocks - left tank is Scimitar and the right is an early unused Defender one (got an ebay bargain for once £25 still available new at almost £200 ESR2734) but the header tank has to be higher than the rad. I hope to fit the Defender one and presumably it has to go above the rocker cover somehow. The expansion bottle can be placed lower than the rad and still works fine. I will probably turn the Scimitar one into an expansion tank and save the Defender one for my kitcar.

Edited December 18, 2019 by jessejazza

[smallfry]

I used to run 3.5 V8s on the standard series radiator (3 core) and never, ever had any problems. They were fitted with blow through electric fans from some old 1980 ish BMW which seldom ever came on.

Point to remember with cores that are denser (fins also) is that they actually inhibit airflow, so without a properly fitting cowl, will make an overheating problem worse.

[jessejazza]

2 hours ago, jessejazza said:

I don't disagree but it didn't work well on Scimitars and was not that good on my Herald. Gunge tends to get in around the rad cap pin. Pic *625 (1st pic) is what I have at present. Pic *131 (3rd pic) shows 3 rad caps (just happened to have them handy) but as you know only the one on the RIGHT will work for that set up - some come with both seals, some no pin (left) but both seals.

Ideally one has a "header tank" (2nd pic) rather than an expansion bottle (as I have at present) and conveniently one gets no airlocks - left tank is Scimitar and the right is an early unused Defender one (got an ebay bargain for once £25 still available new at almost £200 ESR2734) but the header tank has to be higher than the rad. I hope to fit the Defender one and presumably it has to go above the rocker cover somehow. The expansion bottle can be placed lower than the rad and still works fine. I will probably turn the Scimitar one into an expansion tank and save the Defender one for my kitcar.

I forgot to mention that the other vital thing to look for is the slot in the stem (pic added). Without this coolant won't be sucked up the stem. Thought I'd mention this just in case anyone has stayed with the original system and found it not sucking back. So in fact all these rad caps are u/s for the original system.

[jessejazza]

Many thanks for your contributions - all sorted now.

[Snagger]

On 12/18/2019 at 6:49 PM, jessejazza said:

I don't disagree but it didn't work well on Scimitars and was not that good on my Herald. Gunge tends to get in around the rad cap pin. Pic *625 (1st pic) is what I have at present. Pic *131 (3rd pic) shows 3 rad caps (just happened to have them handy) but as you know only the one on the RIGHT will work for that set up - some come with both seals, some no pin (left) but both seals.

Ideally one has a "header tank" (2nd pic) rather than an expansion bottle (as I have at present) and conveniently one gets no airlocks - left tank is Scimitar and the right is an early unused Defender one (got an ebay bargain for once £25 still available new at almost £200 ESR2734) but the header tank has to be higher than the rad. I hope to fit the Defender one and presumably it has to go above the rocker cover somehow. The expansion bottle can be placed lower than the rad and still works fine. I will probably turn the Scimitar one into an expansion tank and save the Defender one for my kitcar.

That isn’t the correct expansion bottle.  You should have an unpressurised black plastic bottle with a simple large cap mounted in a cage that attaches to the rad mounting flange, not the wing.  The hose from the rad neck runs to a connection alongside the bottle cap that has a pickup moulded into the side of the bottle, so it extends all the way to bottom, meaning that the line is always full of coolant and will symphonic coolant back to the rad as it cools.  
 

With a rad with pressure cap and tank with pressure cap, I’m not surprised you’re getting vapour locks or a dry rad.  You should only have the one pressure cap in the system - two will be fighting each other.

[jessejazza]

14 hours ago, Snagger said:

That isn’t the correct expansion bottle.  You should have an unpressurised black plastic bottle with a simple large cap mounted in a cage that attaches to the rad mounting flange, not the wing.  The hose from the rad neck runs to a connection alongside the bottle cap that has a pickup moulded into the side of the bottle, so it extends all the way to bottom, meaning that the line is always full of coolant and will symphonic coolant back to the rad as it cools.  
 

With a rad with pressure cap and tank with pressure cap, I’m not surprised you’re getting vapour locks or a dry rad.  You should only have the one pressure cap in the system - two will be fighting each other.

I know what you mean but as I have mentioned it depends if you have the right rad cap with the double seal, and appropriate slot. It's the same system on many 60s motors but often doesn't work. The rad cap I took off this 4 core rad didn't have the slot so never worked.

The expansion bottle I have put on is a single nozzle (ex Reliant, Leyland Allegro/marina and others), and has a flat radcap on rad and then 10 psi on expansion bottle so no fighting between them.

[jessejazza]

On 12/16/2019 at 3:09 PM, Snagger said:

Steve makes a good point - there are quite a few people advising owners to remove the fan, especially on Tdis.  Some people fit electric fans, and some of those may be too small, maladjusted, set too far from the rad or have other problems making them ineffective.  But as Steve mentions, the cowl is also important - not so much the steel bit behind the fan, but certainly the plastic part that is screwed to the rad.  Without it, the fan just stirs the air behind the rad instead of pulling air through it.

You also need to check the water pump and replace the thermostat.  A three row rad should keep even a hard working 2.25 cool in the current UK weather.

Found the water pump leaking early last week. Found a choice of replacement - From JC one has red britpart or blue britpart... so I robbed the one off the LWB  and been fine so far. Also found the cowl screws a bit poor and decided to leave the cowl off. However despite your warning I haven't noticed any difference on the temp gauge without it. may be more necessary in the summer

[Snagger]

1 hour ago, jessejazza said:

Found the water pump leaking early last week. Found a choice of replacement - From JC one has red britpart or blue britpart... so I robbed the one off the LWB  and been fine so far. Also found the cowl screws a bit poor and decided to leave the cowl off. However despite your warning I haven't noticed any difference on the temp gauge without it. may be more necessary in the summer

It won’t be an issue if you can keep the vehicle speed up, but as soon as you have low speed in warm temperatures, then that is when the fan is needed, and if it isn’t shrouded, it’ll be fairly ineffective.

[jessejazza]

On 2/18/2020 at 5:39 PM, Snagger said:

It won’t be an issue if you can keep the vehicle speed up, but as soon as you have low speed in warm temperatures, then that is when the fan is needed, and if it isn’t shrouded, it’ll be fairly ineffective.

Thanks for the advice. I will obtain the necessary bolts/screws and get it fitted later in the Summer. I am hoping to take her off the road for a while to get some resto done.