Dodgy handling

[Mean Green]

Hello all. The Saga of my Rangie continues.

After my recent offroad exploits I have found that the Rangie suddenly handles like it is on jelly! The back end feels is if it is going to brake away at any moment. Overtaking is a nightmare, when you pull back in after the overtake the car leans and lurches and is just generally horrible to drive.

My main suspect it the A-bar ball joint, but there are no clunks or what i would consider to be normal indications of ball joint trouble.

Is there anything else to check?

I have already looked at the shocks and they seem fine. It does have a slight lean but this is no worse than before the off roading and it handled fine then.

[Highway_Star]

Bushes, bushes, and did I mention, bushes?

On a vehicle the age of ours, especially one that's been stood for a while, they will be tired.

Springs and shocks may well be tired too, also worth checking the wheel bearings for play and the swivels for play/pre load.

The A frame joint is a distinct possibilty, if it does odd things when you come on/off the loud pedal under cornering, it's almost a cert.

[Fatboy]

If it has come on after being off road, I'd suggest tracking - check to see if you've bent the track rod which connects the two front hubs.

Alternatively (as I found out recently ), check the state of the tyres and their pressures - Mine was transformed when I put new tyres on the front. Prior to that, it was skittery, left/right and all of those types of capers. I thought it was either the damper or the swivel preloads but they were fine.

[geoffbeaumont]

Recently replaced the rear dampers on mine, which was a huge improvement. A few months back had the suspensions bushes done (everything except the A-frame bushes, which the garage declined to do), and that was a huge improvement too.

Guess you're just going to have to check everything

[Highway_Star]

declined to do

WTF WTF WTF??

Hopw can they decline to them? Not that bloody difficult, especially for a garage. For us mere mortals it's getting under the car to get them that's the problem.

I had mine changed by a local garage here, they did the bushes and the balljoint, I spupplied all the parts. Cost me £60, whcih considering the hassle this job can be I consider good value. The place that did the job isn't anything special, not a 4x4 place. Just a competent trustworthy business.

[Mean Green]

Thanks guys.

I forgot to mention bushes on my previous post. They were something else I thought of.

Looks like I will need to spend more money that I dont have and change the bushes .... oh no... not another to polybush or not debate! I went through all that with the Defender!!!

[Spotter]

Make sure your tyre pressures are correct too.

Andy

www.landroverheaven.com

[geoffbeaumont]

Hopw can they decline to them? Not that bloody difficult, especially for a garage. For us mere mortals it's getting under the car to get them that's the problem.

They insisted the A frame bushes never need doing (always last the lifetime of the car) and there was a high risk of wrecking the ball joint and having to replace that too if they split it to do the bushes. They already had the bushes (I'd supplied them with a full polybush kit that I'd intended fitting myself) and just handed the A frame ones back.

Personally, I think they just ran out of time and didn't want to admit it.

They didn't do a great job of servicing the car either, and handed it back with the LPG kit not working (they'd broken one of the power cables to it). I don't use that garage any more...

[Niall_CSK]

I forgot to mention bushes on my previous post

Don't worry The Star didn't I and will add to his diagnosis, Bushes if it feels like a sherry triffle then I definately agree with him, time to get the big hammer out.

They insisted the A frame bushes never need doing (always last the lifetime of the car) and there was a high risk of wrecking the ball joint and having to replace that too if they split it to do the bushes

If I may I may offer a professional engineering comment on their assement as a second opinion, B@ll@cks, they do not last any longer or fair much better than panhard rod bushes (both have to locate the axles transversely).

You can do the A frame bushes without disturbing the ball joint. The A frame itself is in three parts. After carrying out all the normal safety precautions and supporting the chassis.

Support the shorter middle section of the arm that the main ball joint and the lower Boge strut ball joint are connected to.

Remove (hammer like hell) the two through bolts that clamp the outer arms either side of the middle section.

Each side arm can now be removed individually.

I recommend not attempting to remove the bush bolt in place unless you are very strong and brave.

An easier method is to remove or destroy the three bolts that hold the bush mounting to the chassis to get the arms off.

If you have a very late / Disco chassis it may not have the cast steel bush mounts, it will have two flat brackets either side welded directly to the chassis, you don't have a choice with this one & I recommend you have Ox/Acc gear before even attempting it.

The bushes can now be done in the usual civilised manner, renewing all the bolts as you go of course. If you speak to Andrew Varrel at Famous Four they will put a bolt kit together for the whole job.

While the side arms are off you can lower the centre section to allow the Boge strut to extend, then you will be able to get a better idea about the conditon of all three ball joints.

The ball joints on the ends of the Boge strut are screwed into the ends of the strut itself and the ball end is held into the supports by gland nuts, all are renewable & subject to the scrutiny of the MOT inspector, if there is no Boge strut fitted they are not. Disco's & later 110's didn't have a Boge strut and fare OK so you can always leave it out if it's not working & you don't want to go to the expense of replacing everything.

The main ball joint is the hardest thing to replace without a decent press, two 6" good quality Record vices smashed can testify to that. If it's not so bad, floppy without being clunky, fill up the boot with swivel grease and ensure that the boot is fitted back good & tight.

It's not the easiest job but it's straightfoward enough and most times you will be amazed at the results. Glad you have stopped giving your time & money to the rocket scientists

[geoffbeaumont]

If I may I may offer a professional engineering comment on their assement as a second opinion, B@ll@cks, they do not last any longer or fair much better than panhard rod bushes (both have to locate the axles transversely).

Roughly my response too - and I'm not even an engineer...

If you have a very late / Disco chassis it may not have the cast steel bush mounts, it will have two flat brackets either side welded directly to the chassis, you don't have a choice with this one & I recommend you have Ox/Acc gear before even attempting it.

Mine's a '93, with EAS (so no Boge strut) and I don't have access to or expertise with an oxy acetylene kit, so as it's okay at the moment I'm leaving well alone until I have to deal with it.

If you speak to Andrew Varrel at Famous Four they will put a bolt kit together for the whole job.

That's what I had - panhard rod needed doing badly and the rest had seen better days so I got Famous Four to put me together a full kit, blue on the radius arms, red on the anti-roll bars, A frame and panhard rod (well, actually the panhard rod ones are blue, but they're red hardness because that's what Polybush actually supply with the comfort kit now). Still not sure if that was a good call or if I should just have had standard bushes fitted - the ride is arguably a little on the harsh side (early EAS has a reputation for that anyway), and a set of standard bushes would probably have lasted the rest of the cars life. I originally went for Polybushes because I intended doing them myself, but then discovered what a git the old ones were to remove...

It's not the easiest job but it's straightfoward enough and most times you will be amazed at the results. Glad you have stopped giving your time & money to the rocket scientists

From the sound of it I'll still need to pay someone else to deal with that one eventually - I don't have the tools for the job

[ariane44]

After my recent offroad exploits I have found that the Rangie suddenly handles like it is on jelly! The back end feels is if it is going to brake away at any moment. Overtaking is a nightmare, when you pull back in after the overtake the car leans and lurches and is just generally horrible to drive.

My Classic felt like this when the steering rod end had gone south.

Cheers

Carsten ;-)

PS: Might be the bushes aswell :-)))

[Highway_Star]

As an engineer, I'd like to add my b@llocks to what Niall said...

Hang on that sounds dodgy!

The workshop that did mine had done many discos, (popular for the grass verge on the school run round these parts), so he keeps the bolts, nuts etc, and has made himself up a set of windy gun operated bush pullers.

[Niall_CSK]

As an engineer, I'd like to add my b@llocks to what Niall said...

Oh dear

You mean he has made up a screw thread bush press?

Ehmm, that didn't quite come out how I meant it either but you know what I mean.

[Highway_Star]

Yeah that's the ticket Niall, basically it's a lump of threaded rod, with the appropriately machined lumps of steel (let's call them dies), and a couple of nuts. Apply into position, attach windy gun, pull trigger, and after a bit of whizzing and clicking the whole lot, including the bush, falls out onto the floor. Having struggled to beat them out with a 14lb hammer, or push them out with a 40 ton hydraulic press in the past, I was dubious to say the least, however having seen it in action, it works!

The guys there also changed the A frame balljoint for me, I've done it once myself, and vowed never again. They made it look so easy, didn't even drop the A frame from the car. Basically the fitter sawed the lugs off the balljoint (where the bolts land), and proceeded to collapse it in on itself with an air chisel.

Hence I've vowed that when I'm rich and famous and can afford my own workshop it will have a four post lift, a chassis lift, a huge compressor and the worlds largest selection of air driven gadgetry!

[Niall_CSK]

was dubious to say the least, however having seen it in action, it works!

I would have been sceptical too, any idea what threads he used? I looked at the Bushwaka a few years back but heard a few say they were not as good as they claimed so I saved my pennies and bought Rangie Collectibles, junk that I will probably never use according to the wife

It's down to the quality of the tools at the end of the day, I have bought some real junk that looked shiny & sexy on the shelf, should have left it there

Never seen the ball joint done with an air chisel before, trusty gas axe is my favourite lots of sparks B)

[Mean Green]

Niall,

Are you volunteering?

[Steve RR]

It's down to the quality of the tools at the end of the day, I have bought some real junk that looked shiny & sexy on the shelf, should have left it there

Did I mention Snap On before?

lots of sparks

You leave me out of it!

[Niall_CSK]

Are you volunteering?

Quid pro Quo?

Did I mention Snap On before?

Before lunch, before dinner, before bed time ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

You leave me out of it!

Oh no, you don't get out of it that easily, grab your Snap On's and get down here soon

[Mean Green]

Oh no, you don't get out of it that easily, grab your Snap On's and get down here soon

Not likely .. I bet he has a half ar$ed excuse like "I cannae, I'm in Shetland"!! or something equally lame!

[Steve RR]

Not likely .. I bet he has a half ar$ed excuse like "I cannae, I'm in Shetland"!! or something equally lame!

Well I am this week! And Hampshire next before you ask.

[Niall_CSK]

Hampshire next before you ask.

That'll be where you get all that Nouvelle Quisine then

When are you going to come round and help us do some real work?

[Mean Green]

Well it ain't bushes!

I had it up on the 4 post ramp at the weekend and gave everything a good once over with an MOT tester, he couldnt find anything wrong with the suspension.

He did find very slight movement in one of the rear wheel hubs, but didnt recon it was significant enough to have the effect it have experiences.

Will get the bearing nipped up and see what happens. Also going to change all the tyres round to see what effect (if any) that has.

[Orange]

Well it ain't bushes!

I had it up on the 4 post ramp at the weekend and gave everything a good once over with an MOT tester, he couldnt find anything wrong with the suspension.

He did find very slight movement in one of the rear wheel hubs, but didnt recon it was significant enough to have the effect it have experiences.

Will get the bearing nipped up and see what happens. Also going to change all the tyres round to see what effect (if any) that has.

Did you ever get to the bottom of this?? Ours is doing exactly the same - mainly on the motorway at speed, but it can be a bit wobbly elsewhere too!! We've done the rear shocks and also replaced the lower steering shaft UJ (it had about 1/4 turn of slack in it!!!) but we don't seem to be getting any closer!! The bushes were all well enough to pass the MoT just over a month ago, so I don't think it's them!!

We know that the rear springs need replacing, but I can't help thinking that this won't cure the problem either!!

[Niall_CSK]

Sorry Greg I should have responded to this sooner but I am guessing you won't be any further with it yet.

Slack wheel bearings can affect the steering stability but usually the fronts are the culprit.

If the wheel bearings are slack DO NOT nip them up. Think about it, why are they slack, wear, if they are worn that much the bearing grease is no longer being effective. Take the hub / disc off, clean out the old gunge and examine the bearings & races. If they are OK grease them up with nice new grease, massage it all the way into the bearings and reassemble to the correct tolerances.

Have you had the tracking checked, even 1/4 a degree can make a very noticable difference.

No disrespect to the MOT tester, if you think you are going to find worn bushes on a Rangie by putting it on a ramp and levering things with a big screw driver while there is 2 ton of Rangie sitting on the bushes think again. They have to be very, sausage up a close, loose for you to even see anything. I have taken a few apart that handled like drunk whippets, passed the MOT and had no noticable bush movement on the ramps but were like so much Play Doh when I took the arms off.

I never now replace just front or rear shocks, so many different black painted tubes are made you could have a mismatch.

I recount a story for the umpteenth time.

I got a vehicle that sat pretty level front to rear & side to side but drove like a bag of spanners, particularly the back end reaction.

I took the Boge strut & A frame out to find, A frame ball joint barely holding together even though the boot was still OK & there was no detectable play on the ramp hanging on a 3ft bar. The lower Boge ball joint was also stuffed and the upper one completely seized, Boge still appeared to be working.

Replace all the ball joints, bushes and reassemble, go for a drive.

Much more supple and predictable but, bottoming out on the bump stops making things a bit queasy.

Back on the drive, disconnect the Boge and down she goes to the bump stops, knacked springs.

New springs, jump up and down with the Boge still disconnected, up & down like a fairground ride.

New springs, shocks, bushes & ball joints all round, set the tracking up, point & shoot, like night & day.

My theory is that the anti roll bar & Boge strut (it does have damping characteristics as well) coupled with the seized ball joint were compensating for the springs & shocks. When they were asked to contribute to the party they gave up the ghost.

This off course is just one anecdotal incident but my point is it demonstrates the possiblity for one item to mask faults in others.

All the parts cost less than 450 squid, Bilstein's best shocks, including all the ball joints & Polybushes, it's the time & labour costs that will be the killer, if you are prepared to put in the work you can do it in most garages with the requiste tools other than setting up the tracking.

Hope this is of some help.

Edited November 30, 2005 by Niall_CSK

[Mean Green]

Well it is now by far improved.....

But then again it should be .... I have just re-bushed it with poly's and new shocks and it is far better.

Turns out the really dodgy handling was coming from the Panhard rod bush, the PAS box had been leaking on to it and the PAS fluid had corroded the bush.

I would still say it is not perfect, but it is acceptable.

I also changed the PAS box - albeit not for a new one and also one of the steering UJ's.

There was a very little play in on of the rear bearings, so I think 4 new bearing will also be on the to do list. As usual it all boils down to time! (and money:( )