series11a?

[garrygun]

Whats the cheapest &easiest way to convert to power steering

& will it cure the sloppy steering?

Thanks guys for any replies.

Cheers, Garry.

[FridgeFreezer]

Depends - can you make a decent job of cutting & welding the chassis to accept a PAS box? If not you either need to find someone who is and stump up the £££, or get your credit card out and buy a CP kit, you may wish to brace yourself before looking at the price though

Here's mine, using a Disco-II box:

Awaiting a lick of paint:

And before anyone asks no it's not on the road yet so I can't tell you if it improves the steering

[Tonk]

a pas box will improve the steering, and will get rid of the series wander.

it will take some fabbing to get one to fit though, tube the chassis for strength and make sure you can weld first.

[RPR]

Couple of Options

There are a couple of options reviewed there.

[jericho]

Couple of Options

There are a couple of options reviewed there.

Some good stuff there!

I went for box on outside of chassis rail.

Is it true that p38 boxes are outside chassis?

Can anyone post up a picture of a p38 box in situe?

If you dont mind welding,just put a standard box where it would normally go,and move front crossmeber forward - ala FridgeFreezer.Its go to be the simplest option.

Power steering will transform a series vehicle - it should be top of the list of mods for any series owner.

Don't bother with the Chris perfect type ram assist.Ive never driven one,but as I see it,you want to get rid of the carp old box and relay that cause al the steering problems.

[FridgeFreezer]

If you dont mind welding,just put a standard box where it would normally go,and move front crossmeber forward - ala FridgeFreezer.Its go to be the simplest option.

Just to be pedantic the x-member didn't move, it just got narrower, replaced the stock one with some 50x100 box which gives space behind without sitting any further forward than the original rad panel mounts.

[92.9]

Some really good conversion ideas here and via that link. I particularly like FridgeFreezer's job above.

I would love power steering for mine, but the only thing that would concern me is altering the chassis. As you are all aware (or should be!), the DVLA have got some great plans in the pipeline to wipe out car modifiers (if they get their way) so any modifications that alter the chassis are going to kill people off straight away, before they get the chance to start arguing about non-original components.

[Guest MJG]

Some really good conversion ideas here and via that link. I particularly like FridgeFreezer's job above.

As you are all aware (or should be!), the DVLA have got some great plans in the pipeline to wipe out car modifiers (if they get their way) so any modifications that alter the chassis are going to kill people off straight away, before they get the chance to start arguing about non-original components.

Care to expand I certainly am not aware.....

[92.9]

Yes, the DVLA are proposing to clamp down on the traditional rule-bending that has been going on by car modifiers for years, either failing to declare modifications or slipping through the net at lenient local Vehicle Registration Offices with inspections. The proposals are basically to enforce the existing regulations.

The wording of the regulations we have been living with (and ignoring) for many years, but now that the DVLA has the technology to look into it more effectively (computerized MOTs) they have made their new proposals. It is supposed to be a measure to counter car crime (ringing), but the people who are going to get caught right up in it are the car modifiers. If these proposals are implemented in full it will effectively mean the end of car modifying in this country - a market that has been estimated to be worth about £2billion per year in the UK. It sounds rather dramatic, and some people have laughed at the very thought of it, but unfortunately that is the extent of what might happen.

The DVLA regulations regarding this recognize a car as being that car according to how many original major items it retains and if the chassis or monocoque has been modified. There is scope for modifying by changing parts (but not too many!), but the chassis or monocoque has to be 'original and unmodified'. We don't yet know how stupid they are going to be about all this, but if they apply the regulations as worded, then modifications such as the ones to adapt a different steering box will cause the owner problems IF it is spotted.

Unfortunately, the Land Rover world is coming under quite a bit of scrutiny from the DVLA because a significant number of people have been abusing the rules and using tax-exempt log books on cars that don't fulfil the description, for example coil-sprung chassis etc. The other scene coming under a lot of scrutiny is the hot rod scene. It is causing havoc in hot-rodding circles.

The DVLA are currently standardizing their inspection procedures at the VROs and training new inspectors, who will be informed about what to look for. There are plans to require MOT testers to look out for undeclared changes on vehicles at the MOT. Once you've been found out then you can expect to be hauled in for inspection. If they decide your vehicle has been modified beyond that which the regulations allow they'll strip the car of its identity and send you off for an SVA test (which your car won't pass because the rules weren't written for old vehicles). Or you could end up with a Q-plate if you are lucky.

Apparently it's all to do with 'harmonization' of EU traffic regulations. The frightening thing is that some EU countries have a class for modified vehicles and that means restricted use. Stupid rules like only being allowed to use your car to go to and from shows, plus having to inform the authorities in advance of your planned trip. That's the kind of thing that some people are expecting to be forced upon us here.

The proposals are being countered by a couple of notable car organizations and the current situation is that a response is being awaited from the DVLA regarding the suggestions put to them. Until we know exactly what is happening I'd be very reluctant to do any vehicle modifications that put me in a dodgy position. Yes, you can change lots of parts on a car and they'd never know the difference, but the ones people will get found out for are the obvious ones. Once your car has caught their attention you are at their mercy. Any chassis modifications and you've had it. Hot rods are going to attract a lot of attention, but Land Rovers are too. Then there are all the other different types of modified vehicle.

[Guest MJG]

Yes, the DVLA are proposing to clamp down on the traditional rule-bending <large snip of extraneous info.>

So if you stay within the rules you will be OK then????

I plan to so no problem.

The rest sounds like scaremongering to me.

[FridgeFreezer]

Do it now before they make it illegal then - you can't backdate laws.

[92.9]

So if you stay within the rules you will be OK then????

I plan to so no problem.

The rest sounds like scaremongering to me.

Yes, obviously no problem if you stick to the rules. Just as an example though, every car featured in this thread have had chassis modifications to fit the steering box, so, with regard to the rules, they say that the car cannot keep its original identity because the chassis isn't 'original and unmodified'. It's as simple as that. You'd have to be a bit stupid to then go and declare this fact to the DVLA, but that's what their rules say they want you to do.

The fact that no one bothers to even make themselves aware of the rules is the rule-bending I referred to earlier. This would continue to be no problem and indeed will continue to be no problem up until the point that the DVLA start to get strict. That is something that a lot of people are waiting to find out.

It's nothing to do with scaremongering. Those are their proposals, which may or may not be implemented in full.

[92.9]

Do it now before they make it illegal then - you can't backdate laws.

The rules have been in place for many years and they have been applying to vehicles all that time! It's nothing to do with introducing new laws; it's to do with enforcing the existing laws that up until now have been larely ignored.

[FridgeFreezer]

Yes, obviously no problem if you stick to the rules. Just as an example though, every car featured in this thread have had chassis modifications to fit the steering box, so, with regard to the rules, they say that the car cannot keep its original identity because the chassis isn't 'original and unmodified'. It's as simple as that.

The fact that no one bothers to even make themselves aware of the rules is the rule-bending I referred to earlier. This would continue to be no problem and indeed will continue to be no problem up until the point that the DVLA start to get strict. That is something that a lot of people are waiting to find out.

As I said they can't make laws retrospective, if something has been modified and then they make it illegal they can't turn round and tell you you have to go on a Q plate. As was established on the hydro steering thread, the MOT is not there to make engineering/modification judgements so your problem will come with the insurance company if you don't tell them about a mod and then have an accident. Even then, unless the accident was directly caused by the modification I doubt it would even be noticed.

The DVLA are more concerned with criminals ringing motors, cutting and shutting, avoiding tax, and deathtrap kit-cars that use a couple of bits of a rusty sierra held together with blu-tak and never see an SVA.

Les Brock has also established that the SVA, although a bit of a paper chase, is survivable with a modded motor so if the worst happens - big deal, you jump through a couple of hoops, get a Q plate, and live happily ever after.

[garrygun]

I dont know how to thank you guys enough, very good info thats great.

cheers,Garry.

[92.9]

As I said they can't make laws retrospective, if something has been modified and then they make it illegal they can't turn round and tell you you have to go on a Q plate. As was established on the hydro steering thread, the MOT is not there to make engineering/modification judgements so your problem will come with the insurance company if you don't tell them about a mod and then have an accident. Even then, unless the accident was directly caused by the modification I doubt it would even be noticed.

The DVLA are more concerned with criminals ringing motors, cutting and shutting, avoiding tax, and deathtrap kit-cars that use a couple of bits of a rusty sierra held together with blu-tak and never see an SVA.

Les Brock has also established that the SVA, although a bit of a paper chase, is survivable with a modded motor so if the worst happens - big deal, you jump through a couple of hoops, get a Q plate, and live happily ever after.

As I said, it's nothing to do with laws and applying them retrospectively. The rules are there and have been for years. They most certainly can tell you that you have to have a Q-plate if your vehicle gets inspected and is found to be modified to an extent that falls foul of the regulations.

All this has been in place for a very long time. The only thing that is changing is the fact that they are going to be applying those rules a lot more strictly - or so they propose.

The undeclared changes I was referring to were changes relating to the vehicle's identity, the details of which are held by the DVLA, not the ones that concern insurance companies. That is separate and it has nothing to do with what I was going on about! Yes, as you say, the MOT isn't there to make engineering or modification judgements and that isn't what I said. I said that it is proposed that the MOT testers are to be told to look out for undeclared changes to the vehicles that they are testing. That is nothing to do with making a judgement of the modification, rather that it is to say that it exists and pass the information onto the DVLA.

As you say, the DVLA are concerned about ringed vehicles, which is the official reason behind their proposals. Whether or not that is the real reason (I suspect it has more to do with the 'harmonization' of EU traffic laws though), the fact remains that the very first vehicles that will get caught up in this are the types of vehicles already mentioned. If anyone thinks they are going to ignore these types of vehicles they are probably in for a shock. The easy targets will fall first.

Regarding your point about kit cars, the DVLA aren't concerned about death trap kit cars because the kit car industry fell into line in 1998 when the SVA was introduced. Kit cars aren't a problem. Your point about tax avoidance is exactly what I said in my post and one of the reasons why Land Rovers have been coming under some scrutiny.

The SVA test wasn't designed for vehicles such as old Land Rovers (and hot rods based on equally dated designs!). Even one or two 1980s standard production cars would fail an SVA test, such is the nature of their criteria. But assuming someone gets their car through and gratefully accepts their Q-plate, the car has now been herded into a rather convenient class whereby further restrictions could be in the pipeline - restricted use etc, as mentioned earlier.

So, getting back to my original point, proposals have been made by the DVLA and until it is clear what they will bring, it is a good idea when modifying or building a car, to bear in mind what may happen if things are implemented according to what they propose.

:-)

[FridgeFreezer]

So, getting back to my original point, proposals have been made by the DVLA and until it is clear what they will bring, it is a good idea when modifying or building a car, to bear in mind what may happen if things are implemented according to what they propose.

That's all very true - however if you do the mod now and it is picked up years down the line then they can't retrospectively punish you for it; for all they know the mod was done before there was any legislation at all (how old is the vehicle, it could've been done at any point in its life). If you do it well then any inspector (or MOT tester) is going to have a job spotting that a 100% land rover steering setup is bolted to the wrong age of vehicle, after all probably 90% of all the land rover stuff they see will have a PAS box bolted to the chassis at that point. If you were to fit a new aftermarket chassis with the PAS box mounts already there then it would be even harder to spot.

Also you are assuming that this mod would require a Q-plate, on the DVLA points system I'm not sure it would.

I would beg to differ about kit cars - the DVLA wouldn't have bothered introducing the SVA if they weren't concerned, and because of the hassle of it all people will go to great lengths to avoid going through it and therefore ending up with a scratch-built kit car that uses only one or two bits of the donor but retaining the original identity of the donor vehicle. Those are the cases I would very much expect the DVLA to be concerned about as the thing is clearly NOT what it is registered as and by avoiding the SVA has got around a major road-safety check - all the more important when someone has stuck it all together (brakes, steering, suspension, lights to name a few safety-critical items) from scratch in a shed.

To put this in perspective, how much do you think the DVLA care about the method by which your old land rover goes round corners? Are you avoiding tax, fiddling the identity of the vehicle, avoiding an SVA or fitting something non-road-legal?

[92.9]

That's all very true - however if you do the mod now and it is picked up years down the line then they can't retrospectively punish you for it; for all they know the mod was done before there was any legislation at all (how old is the vehicle, it could've been done at any point in its life). If you do it well then any inspector (or MOT tester) is going to have a job spotting that a 100% land rover steering setup is bolted to the wrong age of vehicle, after all probably 90% of all the land rover stuff they see will have a PAS box bolted to the chassis at that point. If you were to fit a new aftermarket chassis with the PAS box mounts already there then it would be even harder to spot.

Also you are assuming that this mod would require a Q-plate, on the DVLA points system I'm not sure it would.

I would beg to differ about kit cars - the DVLA wouldn't have bothered introducing the SVA if they weren't concerned, and because of the hassle of it all people will go to great lengths to avoid going through it and therefore ending up with a scratch-built kit car that uses only one or two bits of the donor but retaining the original identity of the donor vehicle. Those are the cases I would very much expect the DVLA to be concerned about as the thing is clearly NOT what it is registered as and by avoiding the SVA has got around a major road-safety check - all the more important when someone has stuck it all together (brakes, steering, suspension, lights to name a few safety-critical items) from scratch in a shed.

To put this in perspective, how much do you think the DVLA care about the method by which your old land rover goes round corners? Are you avoiding tax, fiddling the identity of the vehicle, avoiding an SVA or fitting something non-road-legal?

Unfortunately they can penalize you for it. That's just how it is. Although this concerns a completely different situation I'll give you an example: Window tinting darker than the specified tint banned on front side windows of cars. Law applies to all vehicles irrespective of when the tint was fitted.

Getting back on subject, if a vehicle is inspected and is found to be modified beyond the limits already mentioned it will end up with the aforementioned problems. When it was modified doesn't come into the equation, it's simply a case of assessing the vehicle as it is when inspected. There are thousands of them out there. I'm not saying it WILL happen, but it will happen if the DVLA proposals are implemented in full.

Yes, you are absolutely right about being able to do things that an MOT tester won't notice. There's a lot of scope for modifying beyond what is allowed in the rules, but remaining undetected. Bear in mind though that most MOT testers are into cars and know a hell of a lot about them. Add to them the newly-trained inspectors that will be only too eager to show how clever they are by looking for problems and you can see the potential for things to get out of hand.

I can assure you that the modification would require a Q-plate. That's how ridiculous the rules are and why they've been ignored for so long. The wording in the regulations that you should be concerned with regards the chassis is that should be 'original and unmodified'. You wouldn't get as far as to even get the chance to start arguing about original major components. One way round it would be to have the modification that bolts to the standard chassis, rather than one that alters it. Then the change of steering gear will only lose you two potential points out of the eight required (5 for the 'original and unmodified chassis', then 1 for the engine, 2 for transmission, 2 for both axles, 2 for suspension and 2 for steering).

My point about kit cars was in response to your suggestion that the DVLA are (amongst other things) more concerned with death-trap kit cars. That WAS the case up until the SVA was introduced, but is no longer a concern because the kit car world fell into line in 1998. It was a relatively easy thing to regulate because the vehicles were being built from kits. It's easy with a kit car; you can put it through SVA as a Kit Conversion (along with the manufacturer's receipt for the kit) and by keeping two major components from the donor car you get to keep its registration number. If that's a tax-exempt donor all the better! With a modified car you can't submit it as a Kit Conversion.

How much do I think they care about how an old Land Rover goes round corners? That remains to be seen, BUT I can say for sure that there isn't the remotest chance that they'll turn a blind eye to it if something is brought to their attention. Avoiding tax, dodging the SVA, fitting something illegal? It won't matter to them in the slightest what the reasons are, rather that a vehicle will either comply with the regulations or not. That's all that will concern them.

It's unfortunate that the vehicle modifiers are likely to get caught up in all this, but there is a pretty good chance that they will IF, as I keep saying, the DVLA gets really silly about it.

:-)

[FridgeFreezer]

Window tinting darker than the specified tint banned on front side windows of cars. Law applies to all vehicles irrespective of when the tint was fitted.

Perhaps just a bad example but that's fitting something that is plainly illegal, akin to bolting a set of dumper tyres to a landy and driving it round at 40mph. They are not suitable for the application and would never have been fitted by a manufacturer. I am talking about, for example, fitting factory tinted glass to a vehicle that didn't originally have it. I have done this, and other things, on a car in the past and the DVLA didn't care as long as they were informed. Technically that car should've had an SVA and Q plate but the DVLA only wanted the new engine & Gbox numbers / capacity and the new colour it was painted and they were happy. When people take the p*** then the DVLA sit up and start to look more closely.

Not wishing to dwell on kit cars but very few score enough points to keep their identity and avoid an SVA which is why so many people try to dodge it.

[92.9]

Perhaps just a bad example but that's fitting something that is plainly illegal, akin to bolting a set of dumper tyres to a landy and driving it round at 40mph. They are not suitable for the application and would never have been fitted by a manufacturer. I am talking about, for example, fitting factory tinted glass to a vehicle that didn't originally have it. I have done this, and other things, on a car in the past and the DVLA didn't care as long as they were informed. Technically that car should've had an SVA and Q plate but the DVLA only wanted the new engine & Gbox numbers / capacity and the new colour it was painted and they were happy. When people take the p*** then the DVLA sit up and start to look more closely.

Not wishing to dwell on kit cars but very few score enough points to keep their identity and avoid an SVA which is why so many people try to dodge it.

It's only plainly illegal from when they passed the law. Up until that point it wasn't. After that it was.

Regarding fitting a manufacturer's standard tinted glass to a car in your example, that doesn't come into any of the regulations regarding a car's identity anyway, so would never be a problem. A more suitable example of how a standard item might be a problem would be if you fitted a manufacturer's standard engine/exhaust from a pre-cat (pre-1st August 1992) car to one manufactured after that date - or indeed any engine that would fail to meet the later emissions regulations. That's still beside the point though, because that alone wouldn't call into question the car's identity, rather that it breaks regulations in another area!

The DVLA starting to look more closely is exactly the whole point of my original post. That's exactly what they are going to do - and in fact are doing now according to some stories I have heard (roadside checks on Land Rovers and also turning up at Land Rover events to check vehicles).

With a Kit Conversion you only need two major components from the donor car to retain the donor car's registration, so an engine and gearbox would do it. God knows how anyone manages to fail in that department!

:-)

[FridgeFreezer]

Kir car regs make interesting reading, as I see it your example of "keeping two bits" won't retain the identity but you might scrape by with an age-related plate after an SVA:

Registering a rebuilt vehicle, kit car and kit conversion

Registering a radically altered vehicle

As for the chassis mods to fit PAS they're not really clear

[92.9]

Kir car regs make interesting reading, as I see it your example of "keeping two bits" won't retain the identity but you might scrape by with an age-related plate after an SVA:

Registering a rebuilt vehicle, kit car and kit conversion

Registering a radically altered vehicle

As for the chassis mods to fit PAS they're not really clear

With kit conversions, for the two major components/donor situation I have been told that they often only want to see the registration document from the donor car as proof, so that doesn't seem too much of a problem.

It's a shame really because with a kit conversion you can alter the chassis as much as you like. As long as you are using a kit of some description, plus two major components from the donor car you are okay. I suppose you could convert a Land Rover with some Tomcat parts. Not sure if that would qualify as a kit, but it should do. Kit cars like the Ibex are easy to build and register.

I wouldn't worry too much with your car unless you've done loads of other things to it as well - then you'll only need to worry if all the DVLA proposals start to take effect. It may not happen that way, but at the moment that's how it looks, based on the proposals as they stand.

What worries me is that there will be a load of little Hitlers with clipboards, looking for problems for the sake of it, rather than apply the rulings so as to combat vehicle crime.

:-)