Building for the future

[sheeppimp]

If we accept an MOT cert it's still wide open - we've had a few members turn up in radical stuff with daylight MOT's, which IMHO would be about the bare minimum I would accept if I were organising an event.

Rather than the minefield of scrutineering, which puts a huge load, and a legal responsibility, on the organisers, asking people to have an MOT is about as close as you can get to assuring some sort of minimum level of safety - brakes that work, seats & belts that keep the occupants in, a chassis that's not about to snap and an exhaust that's not going to gas the driver. Beyond that, pretty much everything else mentioned here can be gotten through - MogLite has an MOT and that's about as different as anything out there. You can get a road-legal quad bike or a sofa on wheels, exactly how how much more open could anyone want it?

not disputing the validity of this, the trialing "scene" runs multiple classes where an MOT is not required and seems to manage, both through the AWDC and at grass roots level. This system allows innovation and ingenuity of individuals to flourish and surely this is what should be being encouraged within the challenge environment?

[Steve Hiatt]

Daylight MOTs are no longer available on the computerised system

[dirtydiesel]

not disputing the validity of this, the trialing "scene" runs multiple classes where an MOT is not required and seems to manage, both through the AWDC and at grass roots level. This system allows innovation and ingenuity of individuals to flourish and surely this is what should be being encouraged within the challenge environment?

Here, here!

Daylight MOTs are no longer available on the computerised system

That's sad news

Verily the second lesson according to DD; taken from the Book of DD, price £12.99 at The Church of DD and Waterstones

The ba***rds i only get 40p a copy

[Corrode Finger]

assuring some sort of minimum level of safety - brakes that work, seats & belts that keep the occupants in, a chassis that's not about to snap and an exhaust that's not going to gas the driver.

Thing is all of these basic safety requirements are covered in the regs, for example the AWDC rule book as brought up several days ago when i asked about bodywork.

If someone expects to go out and buy a £250 shed on a saturday and then do some serious competition, which is what we are discussing in essence then frankly they are a total muppet and deserve a good slapping and more.

All of these discussions are about people developing a competition vehicle that innovates within the basic safety requirements as set out for example by the AWDC. All of there requirements are sensible minimum safety related necessaties.

[white90]

The AWDC rules seem ideal to me

I ran through them when entering one of their events, can't see any problem with them at all

safe and sound

also knowing other competitors have fire extinguishers etc which should be a mandatory item IMHO

the exhaust rule doesn't affect me as I have a near standard exhaust

[Paul Wightman]

The AWDC rules seem ideal to me

I ran through them when entering one of their events, can't see any problem with them at all

safe and sound

also knowing other competitors have fire extinguishers etc which should be a mandatory item IMHO

the exhaust rule doesn't affect me as I have a near standard exhaust

All you need now is a trailer and your there!

[white90]

Trailers are not for me.

drive there-Home is always my goal.

trailers lead to a devil may care attitude in some cases.

Re cheating tho

anyone caught should be asked to leave the site and have it made known publicly.

getting to some punches is hard enough to then have someone cheat is out of order and makes the scoring pointless

[Guest WALFY]

• The none trailer to event thing is no proof of vehicle legality or road worthiness. Trailers should be compulsory! How can you be sure you have not damaged the braking system, suspension, steering, tires etc while competing? Mud on the road, driving whilst tired? Best take the car home on a trailer, wash it off and give it a good check over before venturing onto the highway.

I like the idea of this but I don't have a tow vehicle or the spare cash to buy a trailer. An event costs me on average 150 -200 quid with fuel, entry and food for the weekend, if I had to hire a tow veh and trailer as well then it's game over for me.

I can't be the only one in this situation. When it comes to competing I know that I have no chance of taking a trophy home . I compete for the enjoyment and to meet others with the same interests. It's events like James that keep me in this sport. I can't afford the time to travel up north for events and my co-driver runs a fairly substantial business and works some weekends so we choose to do local events when we both can afford the time to compete. It doesn't help that he lives over 100 miles from me as well

[white90]

I missed the compulsory trailer comment

Taking more care on the event/carrying spares/replacing simex with standard wheels tyres is how I cope.

if it all went horribly wrong there is always the RAC taxi service I subscribe to.

[dirtydiesel]

Trailers are not for me.

drive there-Home is always my goal.

trailers lead to a devil may care attitude in some cases.

Driving to-from an event is less than ideal though.

In many cases i think competitors should not be allowed to drive home in there vehicles on the road after competing.

IMHO it's lunacy to drive a comp car on the road for any reason other than as part of a competition.

[white90]

Dan

my 90 isn't a comp vehicle tho I use it every day as my car for

work/shopping etc

yes less than ideal but it makes me consider my actions more and saves the 90 from the new black(tray back conversion)

like Walfy Buying /storing a trailer and a tow car would put me off competing as the extra expense would diminish from other things I want to do.

[dirtydiesel]

Dan

my 90 isn't a comp vehicle tho I use it every day as my car for

work/shopping etc

yes less than ideal but it makes me consider my actions more and saves the 90 from the new black(tray back conversion)

like Walfy Buying /storing a trailer and a tow car would put me off competing as the extra expense would diminish from other things I want to do.

Fair enough, but why is it extra expense?

You have a nice shiny 110" and a weekends trailor hire is only £40 (up here).

what value do you place on groveling around changing tyres at the start and end of the day coupled with a potentialy dangerous drive home/long wait for the AA?

[white90]

that nice shiney 110 is for sale

the replacement vehicle isn't up to towing 2.2tonnes of 90 + trailer

and the groveling in the mud is grim but it gives me a chance to look at the brake lines etc

when I replace the tyres

[dirtydiesel]

Each to his own,

I just come from a background in the sport where all the serious competitors turn up on trailers and will carry out any mod going that'll make there car climb/turn/survive where others carn't.

[white90]

I can see that and understand yours and many others are more capable/extreme vehicles than my own

I just have to stay in or around my own boundaries/capabilities.

[dirtydiesel]

I can see that and understand yours and many others are more capable/extreme vehicles than my own

I just have to stay in or around my own boundaries/capabilities.

It's got nothing to do with having a more capable/extreme(hatefull word) car.

It's got to do with being able to hear the radio on the journey home along with niceties like stopping and going around corners.

[bill van snorkle]

•

An event costs me on average 150 -200 quid with fuel, entry and food for the weekend,

If all motor sport events were sanctioned by the Motor Sports Association, as earlier offroad events in Australia were, then you would pay a small insurance premium at each event, and you then have the piece of mind in knowing that in the event of a serious accident the sixty million quid cover is there to prevent every one involved from having their ar$es sued off.

AFAIK association sanctioning depending on type of event doesn't require the vehicles to be registered, roadworthy or street legal.

Bill.

[Turbocharger]

Question - which are the most reliable vehicles? The trailer queens, which have an irritating overheating problem but never seems to get sorted out between events, or the daily drive that doubles as a competition car and gets a good run regularly to iron out the niggles?

To me, driving a competition car on the road is closer to the grass roots of the sport.

Depends what you want to achieve, each to his own. If you really want to get up that hill, walk up it.

[dirtydiesel]

Question - which are the most reliable vehicles? The trailer queens, which have an irritating overheating problem but never seems to get sorted out between events, or the daily drive that doubles as a competition car and gets a good run regularly to iron out the niggles?.

If the car with the persistant overheating problem beats you, he's still beaten you.

To me, driving a competition car on the road is closer to the grass roots of the sport.

That depends entirely where you percive the grass roots to be.

My grass roots were in a dumper tyre shod, fully caged series 3 competing in mod trials.

[FridgeFreezer]

Trailering is a personal thing and should remain so - some exist on a shoestring and just entering an event is a major financial hit for them to take.

If you have a challenge truck but no tow vehicle (either by choice or time/money/space/SWMBO etc.), you're consigned to driving to events whether you like it or not. Having to wait for the AA in the rain is a risk many consider acceptable, and cheaper overall than many of the alternatives.

I think what people are getting towards is that organisers should pick a set of rules that work, are easy to apply (both for competitors and organisers) and then run with them, and encourage others to do the same. There are several posters on here who organise events, so if they can come to some sort of agreement between them, the ball is rolling already...

If everyone picked a spec, be it MSA orienteering event class or whatever, and then ran all their events to it, people would get used to it. As more people built to accommodate that spec, other events would hopefully adopt it and thus a standard could be created.

The important thing is that whatever spec / class system is chosen should be simple - people do not want to read through pages of technical regulations (see how popular the SVA test is ) as most are capable of building a vehicle that will work at a challenge event. Dare I say it, even roll cage specs need not be as strict as some of the current specs when there's no great speed involved. The premium you pay for an MSA cage has led a lot of people to fit ones that are perfectly adequate for challenging, but not approved.

Sure, in the big boys class, you may have good reason to stipulate some stricter rules about the cage (among other things), but if they're in the big boys class they can either afford the extra cage work, or have the facility to do it themselves.

[white90]

It's got nothing to do with having a more capable/extreme(hatefull word) car.

It's got to do with being able to hear the radio on the journey home along with niceties like stopping and going around corners.

Dan I'm not disagreeing with you, just have to keep within the constraints I have

last event I lost a caliper, managed a field repair and drove home(local event)

then waited for a new caliper to arrive so I drove around fro a few more days minus a rear brake.

funnily it made next to no difference to the braking of the car.

[dirtydiesel]

Dare I say it, even roll cage specs need not be as strict as some of the current specs when there's no great speed involved. The premium you pay for an MSA cage has led a lot of people to fit ones that are perfectly adequate for challenging, but not approved.

Total bol***ks john, have a look at Whitbread for prices of msa spec cages compared to saftey devices s**t.

Most competitors don't have proper cage because either (and in no particular order) the rules don't make them, scorpion don't sell one or because it's fashionable to have a cage made out of conduit with bent back stays.

[FridgeFreezer]

Total bol***ks john

Not debating that it can be done - just that it was the case with quite a few challenge trucks I've known that they saved quite a few quid by going for a non-MSA cage from whoever it was that supplied them.

[dirtydiesel]

Not debating that it can be done - just that it was the case with quite a few challenge trucks I've known that they saved quite a few quid by going for a non-MSA cage from whoever it was that supplied them.

You must have some strange cage suppliers down there.

[Guest WALFY]

Fair enough, but why is it extra expense?

You have a nice shiny 110" and a weekends trailor hire is only £40 (up here).

what value do you place on groveling around changing tyres at the start and end of the day coupled with a potentialy dangerous drive home/long wait for the AA?

Now I' ve just got up and seen this I'll reply.

I don't have a 110 at home. I have a TD4 Freelander. So by your reckoning 40quid for a trailer, but from where. There is no one local ie within 20miles that I can find to hire a trailer and then hre a tow veh with towhitch at say 100 quid for the weekend.

Now my total for the weekend goes to 300-350. At that point I give up. That is pricing people out at grass root level which you all keep going on about.

I have very little mechanical skill, can't weld but can wield a set of spanners. Oh and have no workshop space, I have a lockup garage 1/2 mile from home which my 90 doesn't fit into and it has no electric. Not a great recipe for pushing the boundaries of sport. I rely on people like Gez Paul etc to come up with the ideas this year so I can afford to buy them next year. Maybe that is being a chequebook offroader but it is a very small chequebook.

The challenge scene is a bit like communism. We are all equal, but some are more equal than others. ie some are welcome inside the Kremlin but others just sit outside and marvel at it and eat potato soup. And I'm getting fed up with soup.