NV4500

[dollythelw]

so which one did you go for in the end Gaza?

[bill van snorkle]

That's a shame Gazza that Marks are hard to do business with.Maybe he and Jeff McNamara have started drinking at the same pub.

I have personally seen with my own eyes 2 NV4500/LT230 adaptor assemblies that came from them. They were about 8 years old, so perhaps they can't be bothered with Rover stuff anymore. I know the Proprietor Mark French absolutely hates Rovers with a vengence.

Bill.

[66gaza]

so which one did you go for in the end Gaza?

I had a good look at the TH400 adapter and I thought it could be modified to work. I cut the flange off that bolts to the TH400 and left a stump of 1/2" this would be used to weld and centre the new flange I had made. The stump was V'ed on its outer edge as was the inside of the new flange so there was a good weld area. It was also had it welded where it touched around the outer edge of the new flange. The flange was made 1/2" thick as this then made the spud shaft the exact length required. The flange had a lip on its front side which located it in the NV4500. This resulted in an adapter that is about 3 1/2". I had to remove a small part of the casting on the tail housing of the NV4500 where the transmission mount for the NV4500 was but as I wasn't mounting mine that way so it was OK without doing this the LT230 would have had to be about 2" further back and then the spud shaft would have been the wrong length. BTW I thought the quality of the Marks stuff was really good,

Gaza

[pugwash]

That's a shame Gazza that Marks are hard to do business with.Maybe he and Jeff McNamara have started drinking at the same pub.

I have personally seen with my own eyes 2 NV4500/LT230 adaptor assemblies that came from them. They were about 8 years old, so perhaps they can't be bothered with Rover stuff anymore. I know the Proprietor Mark French absolutely hates Rovers with a vengence.

Bill.

Marks haev been less than easy to deal with in my experience. I bought a 4L80e to LT230 adaptor off them (expensive but cheaper and easier than using an atlas transfer case), which thank god, fitted fine. However the quality of workmanship was just not up to scratch- the casting clearly wasn't made large enough; when they tried to machine the metal back to smooth the lathe didn't cover the whole surface of the item so in places you can see lost of little pinpricks of the original casting. i was goign to send it back but they won't cover the cost of shipping either way (which to Oz isn't cheap) so instead I've had it crack tested -there were no MAJOR flaws detected but it was commented that the standard of work in the casting wasn't brilliant.

Marks use a three part adaptor to mate GM kit to rover kit. One part is a standard part which bolts up to the LT230 and the second part is the custom bit which bolts up the transfercase adaptor to the gearbox. I have to say that the transfercase adaptor is lovely- it retains mouanting plate holes for the gaerbox moutning in the right place and contains 2 perfectly machined input/output seal ports. The bit from the transfercase adaptor to the gearbox was carp. They also supply a custom made hardened driveshaft which looks plenty strongenough- it's larger than the shaft found in the T727 kits anyway.

Marks customer service isn't great though, when i asked for some technical info about fitting they told me with anitpodean charm:

(and i quote)

"I wouldn't know if you need to modify the sump until it is in your vehicle.

It most cases it has had to be done.

This kit is not one we sell very often so it is hard to get feedback on them."

so basically, we haven't got a clue becuase it's not very popular and we don't tell people that they have to mod the sump unles they specifically ask, which in this case you did.

Some piccies:

[B reg 90]

Interesting thread. I've been looking at more beefy gearboxes since I started eying up a 3.0ltr BMW 6cyl diesel for the next incarnation of my 90. I keep ending up going back to the TKO unit as sold by Rakeway. However interested in any experience of the unit (and the BMW diesel) and any suggestions for alternative engines?

Ta,

Adrian

[66gaza]

Pugwash I can't believe they had the gaul to ship that casting as it looks shocking. I wonder if you got it as they knew it wouldn't get returned from the UK? . I only had the main casting with a smaller spud shaft.

B reg 90 are you wanting something for racing (lightweight) or something interesting/different for general use?

Gaza

[B reg 90]

B reg 90 are you wanting something for racing (lightweight) or something interesting/different for general use?

Gaza

Gaza,

I do challenge events and my 200 TDI is fine for those. However I aspire to doing the morroco OBC. A 200 TDI on sand dunes will not hack it. I had been looking at TD5's, but some one kindly pointed out that a 6 cly 3.0 bmw diesel gives 175 ish HP as standard (pre 2002 X-5 engines) and can happily be tuned to 250 ish HP. As I enjoy modding the motor this begain to sound interesting. However a landie G.Box will not take the 425ft/lb this engine can chuck out. Hence the interest in 'stronger' gearboxes..... The most logical solution to date appears to be the Rakeway/Tremec TKO unit, but is does seam a bit spendy.......

Adrian

[66gaza]

I do challenge events and my 200 TDI is fine for those. However I aspire to doing the morroco OBC. A 200 TDI on sand dunes will not hack it. I had been looking at TD5's, but some one kindly pointed out that a 6 cly 3.0 bmw diesel gives 175 ish HP as standard (pre 2002 X-5 engines) and can happily be tuned to 250 ish HP. As I enjoy modding the motor this begain to sound interesting. However a landie G.Box will not take the 425ft/lb this engine can chuck out. Hence the interest in 'stronger' gearboxes..... The most logical solution to date appears to be the Rakeway/Tremec TKO unit, but is does seam a bit spendy.......

Adrian

Why not use the BMW gearbox aswell? BTW how much is the Rakeway TKO? The NV4500 is rated theoretically at 450-460 ft/lbs but they are used in the Dodge /cummins pickups and are OK upto about 900ft/lbs with a 1.375" I/P shaft and suitable clutch. Life will be shorter but probablly still good for 150-200k even at that torque level ( I have spent a long time on the Dodge forums) There is a smaller cummins called a 4BT which is basically a 6BT with the 2 middle cylinders missing so any gearbox used on a dodge cummins will bolt right up inc the NV4500. This will probably be a bit heavy and tall for your intended use. These engines are massively overbuilt and can be tuned to frightening levels. They can take 40lbs of boost as standard. They can give 400bhp and 750ft/lbs if required. they are all gear driven so no belts/chains they do have a belt for water pump and alternator though. They can be fit with a gear driven 12cfm air compressor with a large also gear driven (piggy backed through compressor)ZF power steering pump that will easily power a hydraulic winch. A pressure release valve would have to be fit to protect the weak rover steering box though and a alternator with a vacuum pump would be needed for brake servo if compressor was fit. alternatively a Gear driven vacuum pump with a piggy backed power steering pump from a dodge is fit . it is either the compressor or the vacuum pump though. or compressor and an alternator with the vacuum pump. BTW these weigh 750 lbs about the same as a chevy V8 diesel. Sorry I am rambling now.

Gaza

[RPR]

I have a Cummins 5.9L 6 cyl turbo diesel in my Dodge Ram 2500. Think 900 lbs. Even a pre '98 12v is going to be in the 850lbs + range. There are rumours of a 109 with a Cummins 6BT in it somewhere out West, and I'm sure that with enough time and money it can be done, but that's a LOT of time and money. The 4BT is no better than the tdi quite frankly and while it can be tuned, similar things can be done to the tdi.

While I prefer petrol engines in sand, for long range cruising a diesel is a must. Just before I left Dubai, Mark Powell of Team Saluki, bought a TD5 110 as a play truck for the desert. To my surprise, the engine was great in the desert. Chipped, with better breathing and intercooling, I think it would be a fine engine for the desert if you don't mind the electronics. A 2.8 TGV or bombed mechanical 300 tdi would be better to my mind. And I would consider the LT85. Yes, it's ancient and agricultural, but it's pretty beefy and it will bolt up to Rover metal. A number of the Rally 110s in the Middle East are running LT85s behind 4.5L JE V8s good for getting on 300 HP.

Finally, for big torque, think about the TF727. If you can't stand an autobox, you can get a manual shift valve body from Art Carr. They even have strengthened slightly lower first gear kits for the motor home/RV version available. It'll bolt to the LT230 (if Ashcrofts still have the tailshafts) they are pretty cheap over here, and it will take big torque. It has served behind Mopar big blocks, including the 440 and the Hemi, and was used for a few years behind the 12 valve Cummins Turbo Diesel.

[Daan]

. A 2.8 TGV or bombed mechanical 300 tdi would be better to my mind. And I would consider the LT85. Yes, it's ancient and agricultural, but it's pretty beefy and it will bolt up to Rover metal. A number of the Rally 110s in the Middle East are running LT85s behind 4.5L JE V8s good for getting on 300 HP.

From the pictures, the boxes we talk about have a cast iron/steel housing, which would make them pretty heavy I think. The LT85 has an aluminium housing, and the box (minus bellhousing) is really short. We still dont know torque figure or the actual weight, but it is the gearbox of choice with most comp safari boys so I would definately not disregard it myself.

daan

[bill van snorkle]

Pugwash I can't believe they had the gaul to ship that casting as it looks shocking. I wonder if you got it as they knew it wouldn't get returned from the UK? .

Gaza

Yes that is the roughest looking adaptor I have ever seen. Perhaps they sent it like that deliberately so that they would never be bothered by those pesky LandRover owning Poms again. :

Actually you should check the registers and bores for concentricity, because it looks suspiciously similar to a Turbo 400 to LT230 that I once reworked to fit a NP 435 manual truck 4 spd to Lt 230. The front and rear registers were out by nearly .020''.

Bill.

[pugwash]

thanks for the replies guys- i'll be Mildly miffed if it breaks, but i think i coudl always get another machined out of Ali from the template of the one i have (as long as it doesn't implode )

Bill- what are the registers? it has all gone on to the truck and bolted up fine, and i checked it a couple of times with engineers chalk and the drive shaft seems to contact the seals around the whole of the circumference of the seal which would suggest it is aceptable. Everything bolted up straight and (having not run it) at first glance it all seemse fine- we'll see after it's been running a bit though! If it breaks, it breaks and i'll g my own bits machined- having seen this kit it really doesn't look too hard as long as the parst from an TF727 conversion can probably be made to fit!

if you want a proper box for off roading have a look at the 4l80e- it's good for 900lb/ft with only one or two cheap mods and you can get a fully manual conversion or even pre-select kit!

[bill van snorkle]

Jim, Registers are what are sometimes called spigot diameters, that accurately centres 2 housings together.

Some of the gearbox models and numbers mentioned on this thread have got me stumped. What's a 4i80e off ? or a TKO ? Are these million dollar specialist competition transmissions, or are they from European commercial vehicles ?

Bill.

[Astro_Al]

Bill - just regular transmissions.

Tremec TKO 500 or 600 (also see T56). Manual 5 / 6 speed.

4l80e - US auto for beefy applications, available in various states of 'beefiness'.

Al.

[Mark90]

And wasn't the 4L80e fitted to hummers?

[pugwash]

4l80e is a chevy auto box- it's a four speed over drive box and is the overdrive development of the TH400. It is only found in yank trucks (usually chevy blazers and the like) whereas the smaller 4L60e (being the overdrive development of the TH350) is found in cars and lighter vehicles. The problem with the later 4 speed boxes is that they are all electronically controlled so you have to use an aftermarket controller (or a GM tune lke HPI tuners or EFI live) to control the box. That's no bad thing for performance but doesn't give the reliability required for harsh conditions.

You can pick up 4l80e in standard trim from the states for £200 landed in the Uk and as has been seen marks adapaptors makes a kit for about £300 to mate that to a LT230. You would haev to move the t/box mounting points back (although that's not a terrible job) but you end up with a transmission good for 600lb/ft that has cost in the region of £500- pretty good value for that amount of strength- if you could do that mating of the g/box and t/box yourself you woudl porbably save a couple of hundred off that too.

Common upgrades for the 4l80e are a 300m input gear and kevlar clutch bands which will take capacity up to 800lb/ft- some futher improvements to the sun gear and the like can happily take the box to 900lb/ft. It is not uncommon to find 4l80e's behind drag engines so they can certainly take the torque! This opens the way for the use of cheap LSx ali block SBC V8s producing an easy (and honest) 350bhp and 400lb/ft, which weigh 5kg more than an RV8, but are almost identical in size to an RV8- they are also FAR more economocial and must easier to tune. Cost wise you can pay around £1500 for an low mileage LS1 which will have a far longer life than a rover V8 with none of the massive RV8 problems (slipped liners anyone?)

no idea what a TKO is.

[will_warne]

I have a Cummins 5.9L 6 cyl turbo diesel in my Dodge Ram 2500. Think 900 lbs. Even a pre '98 12v is going to be in the 850lbs + range. There are rumours of a 109 with a Cummins 6BT in it somewhere out West, and I'm sure that with enough time and money it can be done, but that's a LOT of time and money. The 4BT is no better than the tdi quite frankly and while it can be tuned, similar things can be done to the tdi.

While I prefer petrol engines in sand, for long range cruising a diesel is a must. Just before I left Dubai, Mark Powell of Team Saluki, bought a TD5 110 as a play truck for the desert. To my surprise, the engine was great in the desert. Chipped, with better breathing and intercooling, I think it would be a fine engine for the desert if you don't mind the electronics. A 2.8 TGV or bombed mechanical 300 tdi would be better to my mind. And I would consider the LT85. Yes, it's ancient and agricultural, but it's pretty beefy and it will bolt up to Rover metal. A number of the Rally 110s in the Middle East are running LT85s behind 4.5L JE V8s good for getting on 300 HP.

Finally, for big torque, think about the TF727. If you can't stand an autobox, you can get a manual shift valve body from Art Carr. They even have strengthened slightly lower first gear kits for the motor home/RV version available. It'll bolt to the LT230 (if Ashcrofts still have the tailshafts) they are pretty cheap over here, and it will take big torque. It has served behind Mopar big blocks, including the 440 and the Hemi, and was used for a few years behind the 12 valve Cummins Turbo Diesel.

Adrian, with the current prices of Tdis / TD5's I'd be tempted to build a race engine if was in your position - its not going to do many miles so you'd be able to get reasonable power out of them and gearboxes are then a little easier. You'd be able to take your pick of an R380 with TVR internals, an LT85 or a ZF4 autobox with HP24 internals. They may not be super strong but they're up to reasonable output figures.

The Rakeway box is nice - I think it'd be very nice behind an LS lump. I'd love to put that engine / box in a 'road' 90 for a real street sleeper. If I was spending that sort of money on a competition box I'd speak to Quaife and get them to build me something very special. Mmmm sequential gearbox. I think if you started with something like a ZF6 speed auto and then used a manual valve body and a manual solinoid to lock the TC then you'd have potentially a very nice.

[dollythelw]

a TKO is £12-1500 New (outright - not exchange), flywheels $290, bellhousings $300, 600ft/lb clutch kit $280 (theres cheaper to be had if you shop about)

I think Will you'd save a considerable amount of money buying a US powerplant and mondo strong transmission over tweeking a TD5 and having a custom box here, I would have thought you would be aiming for a wallet rape of epic proportions if you head to Quaiffe with that plan might be worth having a nose at what the trophy trucks, class 7's etc are running in the US

trans numbers breakdown as

4 - number of gears

L- Orientation (longitudinal)

80 - GVW in pounds

E - E locking torque convertor

[pugwash]

takea 4L80, add a manual conversion kit, use a B&M ratchet shifter and you have a fully manual sequential box that will handle as much torque as you can throw at it. you can have ful power up or down shifts, and an uprated box will even cope with a neutral drop shift (ie leave the box in neutral, rev the rubbish off it and drop it into first)

you coudl of course go for a 6L80e which is even more powerful and with 6 gears would be perfect for off roading with both a very deep first gear (3.5:1 iirc) and a very long 6th gear (0.4:1)

[will_warne]

a TKO is £12-1500 New (outright - not exchange), flywheels $290, bellhousings $300, 600ft/lb clutch kit $280 (theres cheaper to be had if you shop about)

I think Will you'd save a considerable amount of money buying a US powerplant and mondo strong transmission over tweeking a TD5 and having a custom box here, I would have thought you would be aiming for a wallet rape of epic proportions if you head to Quaiffe with that plan might be worth having a nose at what the trophy trucks, class 7's etc are running in the US

trans numbers breakdown as

4 - number of gears

L- Orientation (longitudinal)

80 - GVW in pounds

E - E locking torque convertor

Jez, I'd agree you'd be cheaper going all US if you want a petrol lump - I think the sort of setup Jim's suggesting is very nice. However, if you want a diesel its got to be a european lump making life easier to bolt it up to a european 'box. That's why I run what I do (uprated ZF4 autobox) as its not that expensive, fairly strong and oh so easy to install. You're not wrong about Quaife but you do get a quality product.

Jim, the 6L80e sounds nice - I'll have to do some reading.

[66gaza]

My dad bought a Rapier 130 with a LT85 only 14K used to carry a demountable around 3.5t all up at 22K 5th was really noisy so much so he went to Ashcrofts for a replacement. After about 5K 5th was getting noisey again. They might be OK in a lightweight racer nut not upto much in a heavy vehicle. It only had a 3.5v8 in it couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding it was still too much for the LT85. The TF727 are strong boxes, atleast the dodge cummins ones are, the rover ones are not really the same. Out of interest does anyone know itf the Dodge/cummins boxes are the same bolt pattern at the rear as the rover ones? can you bolt the LT230 up using the rover TF727 adapter? 3 speed isn't enough gears for a road vehicle without really high diff gears mind the gen 1 dodge cummins managed. The 4L80e was considered but I had an auto and didn't want any electronics going manual valve body - might aswell go manual NV4500. My vehicle was built for travelling and when an auto box fails you normally lose all drive whereas when a manual goes faulty you can uaually limp home.

To say a cummins 4Bt is no better than a TDI is like saying a rolex is no better than a sekonda. A 4BT is 2/3 of a 6Bt most (80%) I believe of the parts are interchangeable by this token your 6bt is also no better than a TDI. I have a 6Bt a 4BT and a TDI and the TDI is far inferior.

Gaza

[dollythelw]

The 4L80e was considered but I had an auto and didn't want any electronics going manual valve body - might aswell go manual NV4500. My vehicle was built for travelling and when an auto box fails you normally lose all drive whereas when a manual goes faulty you can uaually limp home.

Im with you on the combat proofing/survival when it goes T.U. of a manual Vs an auto but......

"built" 700R4's and 4L80's are auto box king kongs with a heap of desert racing mileage behind them, a manual valve bodied auto is going to give you one big advantage (over a true manual) that may be worth having a thing about - W.O.T. shifts

the E lock can be as simple as a button on the shifter - run it latched and looped into the brake lights if you want set and forget? you could skip the E lock but ultimately it would save fuel and keep trans fluid a little cooler

just ideas....

[B reg 90]

In reply to varoius comments with a few extra bits so it makes sense:

I ended up looking at the BMW 3.0 as it in it's latest version it is good for 285HP. Accourding to some BMW blurb this makes it the most powerful diesel engine available against engine wieght. Unfortunately the newer more powerful versions have ECU's that want to talk to the back seat, etc, before starting which rules them out. However the info I have to date is that the core engine is no different from the earlier 174 HP versions (as fitted to pre 2002 X-5's and post 2002 Range rovers as the TD6), the 280 HP version just has twin turbo's and a different ECU. The earlier version is easy (£135 type easy) to defeat the security code and stop it from wanting to see the back seat, etc.

Two items of interest in this:

1/. Wieght - no doubt the cummins engines are good but I am sure that they weigh in heavy. The heavier your motor the more power you need, then stonger the axles you need, the heavier you motor gets, etc. It's a visoucs cycle. More importantly heavy motors do not climb as well and sink into bogs faster....

2/. If the engine is sold with a 280 HP output by BMW, it must be capable of delivering this power reliably, hence there is lots of room to tune the 174 HP engine without sufering from reliability issues.

I did think of a TD5. However by the time you intstall it I do not think it will be much cheaper. It will than need tuning to get up to the same power levels as the standard BMW unit. Loads of people do this and the tuners state that it's no problem. However when you meet the owner of the example of the no problem 200HP TD5 he admitts that he can't keep exhaust manifolds on what ever he does. I take from this that the EGT's are to high due to higher fueling. Hence over time if the exhaut manifold stays on the turbo will suffer. Put it this way, would a standard engine be more reliable than one that has been tuned to a level not caried out by the OEM?? You can alo get more tourque out of the 3.0 BMW engine.

Once you have an engine in mind then you look at suitable transmissions. As the 3.0 BMW engine is the same block as the 2.5 BMW engine in the P38 range rover you can use the range rover manual gearbox - alegedly they do not last if you tune the 3.0 engine. R380's are better, but still go. However I do not know what tourque a TVR spec R380 will take?? (any one??)

I hence ended up talking to Rakeway about the tremec unit. However I had not thought of the LT85.

I am still investigating this so any comments on the above logic (or not) are welcome.

I know very little about american gearboxes, so any advise about units that can take 420 ft/lb / 600Nm and are light/short welcome.

Adrian

P.s. I am not an auto fan as manuals will rattle on even when damaged, auto's sucumb to heat and once it goes wrong they imobalise your motor......

[RPR]

Gaza,

A TorqueFlite by any other name (except a LoadFlite) is still a TorqueFlite. There was nothing special, unique, or different about the TF727 used by Rover. It was ye olde TF727 with an adapter ring to bolt up to the 3.5 and a tailshaft assembly to mate it to the LT230. The 3.5 was not enough engine for the box, they used way too high a stall torque converter, and there were issues with the LT230 adapter, which I understood to have been addressed in the Ashcroft kit. Otherwise, the box is the same that as used behind the early 12 valve Cummins (which does not have a Rover bolt pattern sadly). Honestly, with strong fabrication skills and some very creative suspension work, I think a 12 valve 5.9 CTD would go into a 110 rather nicely - but its like making foie gras. If you shove enough shiat down a goose's throat, it's innards will taste good, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good idea....

There is a Gear Vendors overdrive (like the Ranger?) that works with the 727 and there is an overdrive version of the 727 but I don't believe it was rated to the same beef. The LoadFlite was the RV/Motorhome version of the 727 with further strengthened internals and a lower first gear (3.2:1?).

How much highway cruising is a truck the likes of which we are batting around really going to do? If you want diesel, forget the US. The big league diesels for the 3/4 and 1 ton pickups are amazing, but at 6 - 7 litres and 900 lbs, not very practical in a Rover application. In that case, build off a mechanical platform like the 300 tdi or choose from all the other jubbly options you have. 300 lbs/ft is a lot of torque in a 90 and I would wouldn't think this was too hard to get to off a solid 4 cyl diesel base.

If you aren't averse to petrol, Yank metal is where it's at. LS1 - lovely. Mopar 318 - stealth torque truck engine. An honest 300/350 SBC - cheap as chips. And cheap bomb boxes to go with them.

[bill van snorkle]

I know very little about american gearboxes, so any advise about units that can take 420 ft/lb / 600Nm and are light/short welcome.

Adrian

P.s. I am not an auto fan as manuals will rattle on even when damaged, auto's sucumb to heat and once it goes wrong they imobalise your motor......

I agree with you on the issue of survivability of a good strong manual transmission verses any auto in harsh conditions far from help. Even if I lose all the oil in my Warner T98 and I am aware of it I could limp along at low speed stopping periodically to allow things to cool down for a hundred miles or so. An auto would need a tow truck, and depending on your location,if you can't locate an all wheel drive tow truck you could still be up $#it creek without a paddle.

I only give the Pirate forums a cursory glance these days but recall a couple of threads on nV4500 gearbox problems.Catastrophic failure was mentioned on a couple of posts due to engaging 2 gears simultaneously. I might search for that thread tonight.

Bill.