Looking to undertake Series 3 (Classic era) Project

[LancsRick]

Ok, so I've been considering this, and was just given a Hayes Series 3 manual for Christmas, which has pretty much pushed me over the edge with thinking about this!

I'm a final year university student, home is fairly rural for me, and I drive the family Defender 90 when I'm home. I'm hopefully (as long as I don't mess up my degree this year!) starting work in September, and as such will be looking for a car. Enter the idea of a Series 3, of suitable age to be a classic car...

Needless to say, I'm ignorant of this area, and have many many questions (and also welcome advice for things that I'm too ignorant to even know to ask about!).

I have access to a full 3 phase industrial workshop, and can get very skilled assistance for my efforts too, so I'm not too worried about undertaking a project.

My criteria are these -

- 3 months from start to finish to do the project - i.e. the summer

- as cheap as possible. My labour is cheap, tool access is cheap, so I'd rather it required some work rather than mint condition, to lower the initial cost

- SWB - I've heard that the LWB is a nightmare to corner, so I'd definitely like to stick to SWB.

- Series 3 - I'd like syncromesh. Going to non-power steering will be a significant change for me, losing syncro might be a step too far! (I realise some of the late H model Series II have this too, so may consider them)

- Affordable insurance - I'll be a 21yr old, with no previous no-claims since this is my first car, having held a license for about 2 1/2 years.

- Classic car status - no road tax (Pre '74?'73?)

My aims with this project are NOT to try and historically reconstruct a vehicle, but rather to get myself a solid car, for cheap, which suits my lifestyle, and will also inititate me into car mechanics, possibly leading to a kit car later in life. As such, I've been trawling for ideas, and have found a couple of bits I like (to try and illustrate my line of thinking).

Fantastic looking restored Series 3, practically looks modern to me, very impressed.

http://www.magazineclassifieds.co.uk/searc...at_Series_3.php

Replacement of the standard seats with something a bit more user-comfy

http://www.lro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7...rover+rear+seat

Any advice, suggestions, tips or similar that people could provide would be hugely appreciated, either pertaining to what I've asked, or anything else that is useful.

Many thanks, and thanks for taking the time to read this.

I also meant to ask, since as part of the project process I will almost certainly be totally stripping it, what would you add/modify/improve on an S3 in the process?

Presuming many things get changed/modified/replaced etc during the rebuild, at what point does it stop being the classic Series 3 that it started off as from an official paperwork point of view?

[mike4444244]

Hi

Just a few thoughts from my own experience of restoring my 110 and my sisters 109, wifeys mini and a merc 190.

Firstly, despite access to a comprehensive workshop, (I have too..) you may find you run into trouble with a tight deadline like that, there is a saying 'Faster, Better, Cheaper, pick 2'

To do your project in a few months will ideally mean you need to spend more on your car in the first place, BTW the tax exempt ones fetch a serious premium! and you'll want fairly deep pockets to get parts etc... my sisters 109 cost £500 to buy and has so far cost a further £600 in parts.

Also at the risk of being shot, and despite being a die hard landy fan myself, are you sure a series 3 is what you want? daily driving will get expensive in fuel and other running costs, you might also want to get some insurance quotes too, when I was 21 I was quoted £5000 3rd PT&T to insure my 110 for £4000!!!!!. A lot of people get a cheap car like a clio or something and leave the landy for playing at the weekend, also its less of a pain when you break it offroad and can still get to work on monday!

My advice for what its worth would be to get a runabout to use daily and your series 3 then you are under no pressure to restore it, you can then take your time and do it properly, and end up with a really nice toy at the end

Mike

[minivin]

Well what can I say, from this:

to this:

to this:

Took me 18 months, and being a aircraft designer I also had access to the workshops at work amongst other specialists since I rebuild classic motorbikes. If you want to do something in 3 months I would recommend buying a half decent 2.5NAD 90 as it won't be such a heap to start off with and the parts funnily enough are more plentiful these days as Series parts are starting to dry up on certain things.

Oh and 109's are not bad in corners, they're actually more controlled when you get the back end sliding, much fun at my local roundabout also the tracking in a straight line is better due to the longer wheelbase ie less fatigue on long motorway jaunts

[Betsy]

3 Months is pushing the envelope a bit IMO. I have totally rebuilt my 2a over the years. This culminated in a chassis replacement with a galvanised chassis. The actual chassis job took 3 months, but I had no workshop. I did however have a nice summer to work outside on it.

109 wheelbase is nicer to drive that 88. Yes it may have a larger turning circle, but thats academic when you have to battle with the heavy steering.

Running costs will be high. Fuel consumption on mine is about 15mpg average. My insurance3 costs £160 per year, but I am an old git with full no claims etc etc. !

I personally prefer the 2a, because it has no plastic bits, and there is something very satisfying about mastering the 2a gearbox, and the art of the double de-clutch, especially on a down change. I also think the lights in the center panel look is the best.

If you do this project, DO get decent seats, DO make sure the important bits (chassis, bulkhead) are good before spending money on other things.

Good luck!

[FridgeFreezer]

^^^ What they all said, a Series is nothing like a 90 to drive so drive a Series before you buy one. 3 months is a timescale for fixing up a few minor faults and sprucing it up nicely, not doing a complete rebuild, unless you make some horrible quick and nasty bodges - but then what's the point?

And 109's are the way of truth, listen not to those who are short of wheelbase

Seriously though, longer wheelbase is more stable (less bucking about) and you can get about 3x more stuff in the back of a 109 than an 88. The difference in breakover & departure angles is less of a deal than some people make it, especially now half the world drives 100" coilers at play days.

Since you seem to have yourself set on doing something with a Series (otherwise having a Haynes manual for one would seem a bit random) - welcome, pull up a chair, and have a read through the forum. Pretty much anything you could possibly want to do to/with a Series has been covered here before.

Rob (minivin)'s 109 is one of the best examples you'll see of a meticulous restoration with some very well done modifications. There's lots of others to choose from though, have a browse through the members' vehicles forum.

As for "are there any modifications you'd do" - err, where do we start?

Well, for starters actually I'll write off a traditional favourite - fitting coil springs. Don't bother - just buy a 90, or cut up a Range Rover and build a hybrid. When 90's cost more than Series it was a good idea. These days a ratty coiler is cheaper than a ratty Series so you may as well buy the right thing.

Chassis - you can buy a new one for not much, galvanised if you want it to last forever but you need to plan any changes before you buy it to avoid having to cut into the nice galvanised coating and weld bits on. Some places will sell you a bare unpainted ungalvanised chassis so you can modify it before fitting.

Engine - No-one's MegaSquirted a 2.25 yet and I still want to see someone do it. More popular through is the well trodden path of dropping in a 2.5 from a Defender, or a V8 or TDi. Other less well trodden but potentially more interesting options are out there, it's all down to what you want to do - anything can be made to fit I'd quite like to see another Rover Twink, or BMW six, charged Jag 3.6 or Supra TT engine in a landy. You'll probably need a new gearbox & better brakes if you're upping the power.

Gearbox - if you want the full classic experience then stick with 2.25 engine & standard box. If you want it to have a bit more go and be tolerable on the motorway, sticking a 5-speed (LT77 or R380) in with LT230 transfer box is the preferred option as they're a bit more reliable with a more powerful engine up front. Autoboxes have been done too. A 109 gives you the space to do this more easily than an 88, where you run out of rear propshaft with the longer transmission and end up losing the Series front end.

Axles - another area of upgrade, usually to gain disc brakes, but clearing the leaf springs with the steering components takes a bit of head scratching, have a look at Meccano's vehicle. You can also fit other axles to gain strength for bigger tyres, diff lockers etc. Toyota land cruiser axles are gaining popularity, then you've got portals like Volvo and UniMog which I'm biased about but think go rather well on a Series B)

You can buy a disc brake conversion for a Series axle for £eeek, some have made their own (Gremlin and Tonk) likewise you can upgrade Series axle internals but there seems to be a reliable limit of about 35-37" tyres with Rover stuff, and towards the top it gets damn spendy and alternative axles start making a lot of sense.

The later "big" drum brakes from 6cyl/V8 109's can be retro-fitted and stop very well when in good nick and adjusted up, the problem is it never lasts long especially off-road

Steering - Is rather "special" on Series, you can buy a TIC PAS kit which is £eeek or you can notch the front crossmember, tube it and fit a coiler PAS box. Or you can develop really good arm muscles.

There's loads of stuff out there, and on here, so have a read, look at what people have done and decide what you want to do before you jump in.

[CR88]

Hi,

3 months is too short in my opinion, even if you work everyday. But is possible depending in your experience, parts and cash availability.

Other important question, if you are doing a real restoration do it as better as possible. Don't forget certain question. Do it properly, you can avoid re-do it again...

About certain mods that you think that you should include, think always in the use that you will do to your Land Rover.

My experience tell me this. I rebuilt a SIIA of 69, mainly to some off-road (light and safe ) and small travels. But it past months without running, because I had no time to enjoy it, and I found the LR with minor faults due to the lack of driving. Then I decided to use it in daily basis, not everyday but at least 2 days per week. I found it not suitable to do this properly. Thanks to that at the moment I'm doing some mods.

1. LT 77
   
2. LT 230 (from a 90 2.5 n/a)
   
3. axles from a disco 24 splines (with all the safety items included)
   
4. PAS
   

About the engine I'm limited thanks to Portuguese legislation, but if I live in the UK my choice it would be a 200/300 tdi.

A better engine fit better in spec presented, but at moment I'm certain that I gain in comfort and drive ability.

Good luck

[twizzle]

Hello

yes 3 months is too short

it's taken me 14 year's to build my 109

the problem is with me i keep changing my mine on what im doing

TWIZZLE

[minivin]

Rob (minivin)'s 109 is one of the best examples you'll see of a meticulous restoration with some very well done modifications.

ooooh! what you after?

[T1G UP]

Is he in the Vapour build catagory by default now! 3 months

get one with a mot and tax,drive it,break it,fix it,sell it, buy a 90 just like the rest of us.

[FridgeFreezer]

ooooh! what you after?

Just booking backup for when Jen works me to death on her rebuild

[LancsRick]

Many thanks for all the replies everyone. I'm still weighing up options and investigating possibilities at the moment, so I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do yet.

Redoing a 90 has been something suggested to me by a few people, so I'm going to look in to that (it may be a tank, but I do enjoy driving our Defender 90 at home ). A couple of potential problems in my eyes that have sprung up are the horrific fuel economy of the Series (especially the petrol, and apparently the 2.25 diesel is very underpowered?), and also the fact that having had an initial look around common insurance companies (normal and kit & classic), there seems to be a tendency on the classic insurance that you are limited to 4000 miles, and more importantly, must be over 25, which would totally sink me! I want the numbers to work out, so if I get increased fuel costs but greatly reduced insurance and tax, excellent, but if both are going to be expensive, then I'll be looking at other options I think.

[FridgeFreezer]

With a bit of tweaking you could probably squeeze 20 or 25mpg from a 4-cyl petrol by fuel injecting it and tweaking it up a bit, but by the time you've done that you may as well drop a V8 in (20mpg) or a TDi (25+mpg).

Your #1 stop needs to be insurance, find out what you can & can't do - a classic policy is not a specific thing, it's just a label the insurance co attach to it. You would probably get similar discounts from limited mileage "normal" policies especially if you're a member of an owners' club.

Adrian flux insure me, they need proof of club membership to give full discount and I'm on slightly limited mileage (but I can increase it for not much extra).

If you think the 90's a tank, drive a series! Don't rule out an old RR or Disco, or to be a real heretic find yourself a Suzuki SJ - cheap, economical, capable, easier to insure... they make a lot of sense and have almost as strong a fan base as Land Rovers and can be modified just as much.

My suggestion would be smoke about in a ratty SJ for a few years while you build a really good Land Rover and a good no claims bonus to go with it. The SJ will be a good car to learn the ropes in, and having more time (and cash) to build the Land Rover will result in that turning out better too.

[minivin]

I concur on the fuel economy, my ex boss had a SIII SWB Station Wagon running on a 2.25P, he did a few tweaks to the engine, as well as fitted a more modern Lucas digital ignition system out of a montego that needed the advance curve tweaking (more advance needed!) and fitted 3.54:1 diffs. result was that he could achieve 25MPG on the motorway at 70mph!.

Insurance wise, Adrian Flux! I only passed my test two years ago when I was 23 and I'd just finished the rebuild of my 109 (had a motorcycle license since I was 17 and riding sportsbikes et cetera I didn't really have a need for a car......), I contacted AF the day after my test and they happily took me on with the insurance being as follows:

Series III 109 ex military

2.5 Normally Aspirated Deisel

Modifications: Parabolic springs

NCB: Nil

Driving License Years: Nil

Premium: TPFT unlimited mileage, 500 quid or there abouts (I forget)

I then six months later fitted a 3.5 Rover V8 and their response was "everyone fits them, that'll be an extra 50 quid", then a front disc brake conversion with the response of "wise conversion, no change to premium" and finished off with a defender gearbox conversion that also had the same response.

You've got to play the game

[FridgeFreezer]

I had to e-mail a list of modifications to Adrian Flux as there was too much to explain down the phone

[TheRecklessEngineer]

Have a look at my avatar...109 with a rather pokey 3.5 v8 (off the speedo...). I was 21 at the time. Really wish I hadn't got rid of it. (23 now and planning another one...)

The only reason I could afford to run it was that I had a diesel landy as well, and split the cost with a mate. Insurance was peanuts (200 ish) with NFU.

Virtually nothing was done to the vehicle itself except an accidental brake rebuild (don't ask) and bunging the engine in. Find one with a solid chassis that will go through an MOT and don't worry about the rest of it not being perfect. Being a series there will always be something wrong with it.

[Jen]

Just booking backup for when Jen works me to death on her rebuild

Good man

Good luck Rick, I have no advise to offer as I'm just starting mine I'm afraid. One thing to bear in mind though, always stick to what you want from the vehicle (although this will involve deciding first!), there will be lots of people waiting in the wings to influence you. Although advice is always good and often essential, you have to be happy with your vehicle in the end

[LancsRick]

Finally managed to meet up with someone with a S3 yesterday, lovely piece of machinery . On a slightly more negative note though, I got a quote back from AF today for £1400 :s. So I'm going to play around with some options and try and find where the increase in premium is coming from - if it's going to cost more to run AND more to insure than a small car, then this project isn't going to get off the ground for the time being .

[bill van snorkle]

Finally managed to meet up with someone with a S3 yesterday, lovely piece of machinery . On a slightly more negative note though, I got a quote back from AF today for £1400 :s. So I'm going to play around with some options and try and find where the increase in premium is coming from - if it's going to cost more to run AND more to insure than a small car, then this project isn't going to get off the ground for the time being .

Is the 1400 pound premium for compulsory third party insurance cover or comprehensive ? IMO series LandRovers are not worth insuring because used parts to repair even relatively serious accident damage would cost less than one years premiums.

Bill.

[LancsRick]

Spoke with an AF rep on the phone today, the problem was that I'm under 21. Since I turn 21 next summer (when I'm looking at doing this project) I asked for a price if I was 21, and lo and behold, down to £500 3rd party fire and theft . Much better

[callum]

Spoke with an AF rep on the phone today, the problem was that I'm under 21. Since I turn 21 next summer (when I'm looking at doing this project) I asked for a price if I was 21, and lo and behold, down to £500 3rd party fire and theft . Much better

give footman james a shot, mine is £120 for a 110 with an isuzu 2.8. i'm 24 and its been insured for about that much for 2 or 3 years now. i had it insured under my father's name whilst i was still a teenager, and it never changed when i switched it over to myself. actually it doesn't change for much, no change when the 2.5 n/a was ditched in favour of the new engine. mileage is unlimited, fully comp.

it insured as a classic commercial and as an ex military vehicle, which required Military vehicle trust membership (about £15 a year and they send you out agood magazine encouraging you to buy other stupid things).

maybe that makes a difference, phone around lots. when i tried to insure a 3.0 alfa 164 with the same lot, they wanted over a grand from me and were not interested in the fact that i already had a policy with them and so were about twice as much as normal insurers such as elephant. i would have said the 164 was more rare and worth preserving than another old land rover, but there you go.

[laura]

I'm a young female student, under 21, and I have had a 1981 SWB Series 3 Diesel since I started driving. I love it. It is cheap to insure, relatively cheap to run and really good for getting around the back roads in my area (also rural). Whilst it isnt speedy, it will happily trundle along at 60mph, and with an overdrive the fuel economy is much improved! I have used it on motorways without feeling too stressed. You just gotta realise it isn't as nippy as a modern car and never will be. If you want a landrover, you will never have a fast car! My mum's disco is slower than mine up hills so newer isnt always better! With the insurance, it usually makes a big difference when you put a limit on the mileage (mine at 8,000 and that fine. standard insurance limit is about 10,000) and put your parents as named drivers (the companies take this as the idea that you won't be driving so much and therefore not such a risk!) I'm with Sabre, as is my sister and my deal is so good that hers is only about 50 quid cheaper a year even though she is 23. I hate to say it but its you being a bloke that is making it so expensive. Your age group is highest risk so anything you insure on your own is gonna kill you with the price!

I do alot of work myself for the car. The parts themselves are usually very cheap and landrover being landrover, most things from newer models can be fitted into the Series 3. I have simply invested in getting a decent socket set (check sizes before buying as the old landrover bolts arn't the same spec as on modern cars), a set of jump leads and lots of WD40!!! I am slowly upgrading my car according to my budget, which is great with landrovers as you can use it during the week and then do little things at the weekend. I would say its worthwhile finding as many old landy owners around you as they can usually tell you about someone who breaks up landrovers (I have got some amazingly good deals on parts like overdrives and body panels!) Some things like lights are so cheap new. My dream is to get mine soundproofed.

Another point is working out if the car you buy is work the work. I found mine in a field for 250 quid where it was filthy but the engine was in perfect order. A good scrub and it was good to go. Often there are people who don't realise that their grubby scruffy looking car is as good as it actually is. On the otherhand where people have begun working on the car, they often expect a return for it and charge alot extra.

The pluses for doing a Series 3 up are:

It will never decrease in value. Improvements increase value and they are always in demand (classic car remember!)

It teaches you to drive well (no power steering + town parking spaces = one amazing parker!)

It will last forever if you treat it right

With the right tools and the Haynes manual you can do anything to this car yourself (saving those £50phr labour costs)

Parts are dirt cheap so when stuff goes wrong it isn't the end of the world

It allows you to enter into the amazing world of landrovers! I love getting waves from fellow landy drivers on my way to work!

I have grown to love my car more than I ever thought possible. The same is true for my sister in her series 2! Itwill be a car for life!

Negatives:

Stuff will go wrong. My battery started draining at random times (was a duff earth in the end), including on the day I had a 9.00 am A-Level Exam!!

It is noisy as hell. But i have grown to love even that fault!

It is time consuming to do it. it must be a long term project. don't expect your dream car in a couple of months unless you have endless cash, an army of helpers and one hell of a lot of spare time!

Hope this helps, seeing as I'm pretty much in exactly the same position as you. Good Luck!