92.9 Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I was thinking about the ridiculous regulations that were introduced early last year regarding water-based paint for cars (and no doubt lots of other things too) and was wondering how the Land Rover world - especially the DIY Land Rover world - has been coping with this. I am aware of the fact that manufacturers have been using water-based paint for a good while, but it doesn't sound like a very good system to be using for vehicles that are quite likely to get scratched on a regular basis. Once the lacquer is scratched then you've got water-soluble paint exposed, haven't you? I have seen modern vehicles with all the paint dissolved on the lower wheel arch trailing edges where repeated stone chips have taken the lacquer off, then the water has removed the paint. That's just ridiculous. What have you DIY Land Rover painters been doing? Have you stockpiled 'proper' paint for future use, or is water-based paint not much of a problem? I don't like the idea of it at all. One coat of something that won't come off sounds sensible. Something water-soluble under lacquer seems like a ridiculous and flawed system to me. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 This is the first I heard of it. I think its crazy. What is their aim for not using normal paint? Surly the lacquer is made of the same stuff as normal paint anyay so if its a polution thing that they are worried about its not going to make any difference. What about stone chip paint then? My whole landy is painted with tins of spray underseal/anti stone chip paint. When I get a bad scratch (which is often) I just give it a little spray over with the can thats kept spare in the back all the time and it looks good as new.. Hope they wont stop selling that stuff. I cant see them ever getting rid of celulose paint for a long time since there will be cars for the next 100 years or so that will need retouching after accidents and will require the old paint. I cant see it ever being a problem getting the paint if you want to DIY it. Just one more thing. do you know its against the law to dive a car with no paint on it. So you cant get your sander out and have a shiny polished metal (or after some months not so shinny and polished) finnish. Not sure why this is other than maybe it might reflect light into somones eyes, but what about silver cars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Cellulose paint was going to be banned last April, but now has an indefinite reprieve. I don't think water-based paint is soluble once it's dried. I didn't think other types of paint, such as twin pack Epoxy were going to be banned. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92.9 Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 It's all to do with anti-pollution measures. Like everything else environmentally friendly it appears to be substandard. Just like envionmentally friendly degreaser and wood preservative. carp. The points you have raised are exactly the same points that I raised when I first heard about it! The fact that the lacquer has to be traditional solvent-based I suppose they'll say that they have reduced the pollution there by using some water-based paint. I still haven't found a suitable answer to the question about touch-up paint, like you would buy from Halfords or something. Surely they can't do away with those. Regarding cellulose, I understand that some provision has been made for some limited use for some car restoration purposes, but again, I can't find any infomation about exaclty what this covers. I've never heard the one about having no paint! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 You can put one type of paint on top of another - even if they would normally react with each other. You have to apply a coat of barrier paint first. I've seen bare metal L/R's in this country - never heard of it being illegal either. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92.9 Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 Cellulose paint was going to be banned last April, but now has an indefinite reprieve. I don't think water-based paint is soluble once it's dried. I didn't think other types of paint, such as twin pack Epoxy were going to be banned.Les. Les, it does come off once the lacquer has gone. There was a big thing about it a number of years ago. I presume it was when the manufacturers first started using it. I saw something on Watchdog or similar about people complaining that they were losing paint off cars when bird carp was dissolving the lacquer and the weather was removing the coloured base coat. That's interesting to hear about cellulose. I hadn't heard that. Good news. I'm not sure about the exact rulings, but I do know several car paint sprayers and they have all had to move over to water-based paint systems. The existing stocks of traditional solvent-based paint were available until they sold out, then that was the end of them. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Cellulose paint was going to be banned last April, but now has an indefinite reprieve. I don't think water-based paint is soluble once it's dried. I didn't think other types of paint, such as twin pack Epoxy were going to be banned.Les. I jus remembered. Acrylic paint is water based and as you just said, not water soluble when dry. I painted my MG with acrylic and it lasted 3 years before there was any sign of trouble. The laquer got damaged by flies and then the paint started to go like crazy paving. I just put this down to the fact that it was the first paint job I ever did and I did it by hand in a dirty garage with spray tins. Still, wasnt too bad for the cost and effect. More pics on my old site if you want to see. http://www.roverpowered.com/~booyaah/cara.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92.9 Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 The problem for me (and no doubt most of us in here) is how to get a good paint job done at home. I can do bodywork and preparation to a very good standard, and spray paint to a reasonable standard (or excellent standard if you look at it in the Land Rover context! ), but I've only used cellulose. I don't know how the new paint regulations will affect the traditional DIY enthusiast. If that's true about cellulose being still available then that's great. Problem solved. I havent used two pack before, so I won't miss that! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92.9 Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 Scotian, I have seen water-based paint that has been dissolved in areas of chipped lacquer on production cars, so maybe they use different paint. I can see that it isn't a great problem for modern cars as they are galvanized before painting. Not much of a problem for Land Rover bodies too, but on older non-galvanized cars being re-painted I can see that it would be a problem with the steel being exposed after wear and tear has removed the lacquer and the weather has dissolved the base coat. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 THis & the HSE link witin it might explain more http://www.stephen.hull.btinternet.co.uk/sealers.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfredenewman Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 if you can prepare and paint using cellulose and get good results you can use 2k paint and get better results as you can take liberties with your prep for 2k if you prepare to celly stds it will look good .you dont have to base colour the whole pannel just fade your repair in as per celly then laquer complete panel , that way you can get away with colour variance . give it a go you will be supprised at the results Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92.9 Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 My cellulose technique involved a fair amount of rubbing down and polishing afterwards. I'll have a look at that link Western, thanks. I have seen the other pages on that site. Really handy for looking up Land Rover colours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzaz Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Use a roller and youre quickly done with it! joking apart, heating up the paint helps as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92.9 Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 I wondered how long it would be before paint rollers got a mention! The Land Rover and DIY household painting techniques connection never fails to amuse me! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzaz Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 To be honest i was resisting from mentioning the roller... dont know if you guys use them too! guess its a common landrover thing then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92.9 Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 Haha yes! Especially in Series Land Rover circles! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzaz Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 yes right...probably you've seen my avatar eh... rollered with whatever paint I has at hand! Wont stay like that much longer...changing the colour scheme...and probably will upgrade from the roller to a spraycan! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92.9 Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 I was just thinking, if you go for Sandglow Yellow you could mix some sand in with it to get a realistic texture! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzaz Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 hmm.........good idea, never thought of that! And what about washing it, what would you recomend? An angle grinder maybe?! well not that I wash it often...considering that in these 7 years that I owned it I never washed it.... my gf did wash it once tho... sandglow yellow... with sand I'll think about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92.9 Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 Just think yourself lucky you don't own a Cosworth Sierra and want to paint it Moonstone Blue. It would be VERY difficult to get the required additives for that paint! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Water based paints seem to be much thinner, and take a lot longer to dry. On the thought that they can be dissolved by water once they have cured, many road surfaces are actually water based emulsions these days or complex polymer, traditional hydrocarbon based tarmacadam is getting rarer. A few years ago, there was a bit of an issue whilst the "Rest and be Thankful" was being resurfaced on the West Coast and an unforecast downpour dilluted the emulsion to the point that it was getting sprayed up by traffic Some vehicles even got stuck on it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzaz Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 good one! how about my opel astra, its Midnight Black, any idea about its texture?! Think I hijacked your topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92.9 Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 Now that's a difficult one! Paint the Astra in Land Rover Mucky Spud Brown! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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