Scotian Posted May 12, 2008 Author Share Posted May 12, 2008 And a couple of pics of my working conditions Broken glass, dog poo, food thrown from the bins from the gypsys bin rummaging, broken bricks and stones. Its not a whole load of fun under the landrover for hours on end :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 1/2mm is miles in crankshaft journal diameter terms. The picture down the bore - the crank journal looks rough - it should be smooth and shiny. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 the bigend jounal should have (from the 200tdi Discovery workshop manual): - 58.725 - 58.744 mm when new - 58.4708 - 58.48985 mm (how can you measure this x.xxx85?!) - reground (no further regrounding steps stated in the manual). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 I was going to say I had a similar problem with an MGB once, but the damage was nowhere near as bad as that - the shells were worn down and scored, enough to make the engine knock and drop oil pressure, but they still looked like bearing shells when they came out... Crank journalls looked ok to my i-spy bionic eye, and felt round enough so I just sliped a new set of bearing shells in - only to have to do the job properly and strip the engine down a week later when it happend all over again. I would be amazed if you didn't need the crank regrinding (if it's got enough metal left on to do it), and I'd also be worried that there was debris in the oilways waiting to do some more damage later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 I was going to say I had a similar problem with an MGB once, but the damage was nowhere near as bad as that - the shells were worn down and scored, enough to make the engine knock and drop oil pressure, but they still looked like bearing shells when they came out...Crank journalls looked ok to my i-spy bionic eye, and felt round enough so I just sliped a new set of bearing shells in - only to have to do the job properly and strip the engine down a week later when it happend all over again. I would be amazed if you didn't need the crank regrinding (if it's got enough metal left on to do it), and I'd also be worried that there was debris in the oilways waiting to do some more damage later. oops - a couple of posts went on while I was typing this - yep, the journals are goosed. look like they might grind up ok though, I bet a lot of the rough surface is metal transfer from the bearings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Posted May 12, 2008 Author Share Posted May 12, 2008 All the other ones are perfect. ITs just the No.2. I cant understand how this happend in the space of about 10 seconds. I was driving along with the engine sounding as sweet as a nut, glided past a lorry at about 55mph then when I pulled in and reduced reves there was a horrible rattle. How did it fail so quickly with no warning atall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Posted May 12, 2008 Author Share Posted May 12, 2008 As already said, I've got a perfectly good 200tdi (with No.4 piston ring broken and scored cylinder). Can I get the crank shaft sent over here along with all new gaskits and seals that should be done on the way too? Is that feasable or should I seriously look at buying a 300 quid disco and driving it here and swapping the engine? Remember, I'm skint but I want a reliable engine, not a bodge job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 bit of debris in the oil clogging an oilway I would have thought - it's probably been wearing down for a while and it will go quite suddenly when theres enough play to send the conrod banging up and down on the bearing mind you, number 2 is quite worn as well, so could just be general wear or poor maintenance in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 I know of a '95 RHD 300tdi 110 Defender unregistered for sale, guess where... in Craiova. The owner said he wants something in the order of 3000 euros for it and the engine has 95.000 km (60k mi). PM me if interested. The journal is b...d. You can get 030 bearing shells but you'll have to regrind the crankshaft to 57.963 mm (lowest limit) which I don't think it's possible. You measured 58mm, but this includes the scoring (which has to come off). You can probably regrind it to 57.7mm or so but there are no bearing shells to match this size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 All the other ones are perfect. ITs just the No.2. I cant understand how this happend in the space of about 10 seconds.I was driving along with the engine sounding as sweet as a nut, glided past a lorry at about 55mph then when I pulled in and reduced reves there was a horrible rattle. How did it fail so quickly with no warning atall? Almost definitely a spun bearing .................. probably the surface of the lower shell began to break up ............. a small sliver (only a few thou thick) then gets caught between the 'whole' part of the bearing and the journal ................. once that happens the whole bearing spins in the housing and breaks up very rapidly..................... another way it can happen is for the breaking up shell to deposit some unwanted metal on the journal, but the result is still the same. Even at low rpm that happens very, very quickly......................... Yes, the journal is damaged and maybe you might get away with a reground crank............. The wear on the other shells is significant (i.e. they have worn down to the copper backing) indicating that the engine is past its best. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 A bearing suddenly spinning will wreck the journal in a fraction of a second. The oil flow will be shut off as soon as the shell rotates a few mm and then it's all friction Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 I agree on that. Scotian, the other 3 bearing shells and journals tell you the story. You have 58.5 mm journals, they are very close to the 1st regrinding step but you have standard bearing shells on them which are worn to the copper (and we only saw to bottom shell on the #3, the top shells are much more loaded). On the other hand, how come you didn't hear the knocking conrod noises lately? They can be easily heard on a cold startup and also if you vary the engine load. The whole story gives me the point needed for the "round tuit" I kept saying lately. I was planning to take off the sump for the past 6 months on my 300tdi and take a peak at the bearing shells. I'll probably replace them regardless since I already bought all the bits and pieces needed for the job. I never heard the noise under engine load but I heard it 2 times last summer on cold start for a couple of seconds until the oil pressure raised enough (there were 2 very hot days). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 Sorry to say, but I agree with others that have said once the big end shell has spun the crank will be scrap. Ihad this happen on a 455cuin pontiac and from the oil pressure drop to me killing the engine was about 10seconds and it took 3mm off the dia of the crank journal . You could fit the crank out of your UK engine but it would need a full measuring inspection and grinding if its near the wear limit. New shells ,seals , gaskets , timing belt . The remains of the engine would need removing , stripping and cleaning by an engineering shop with a steamer cabinet and airlines for blowing out....the oil pump would need to be stripped/cleaned/measured, cam bearings would need to be checked......all that metallic muck in the sump has been round the engine oilways and through bearings .....much simpler would be to swap in the disco engine you can get here in the UK Rebuilding a wrecked engine is a big job that needs a clean environment. Hope your luck changes Scotian, a lot of us have been through runs of luck like this ..... Cheers Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Posted May 12, 2008 Author Share Posted May 12, 2008 Thanks for the depressing reality check Just now even a 300 quid disco is out of reach. It would cost me 1000 pounds by the time I get it back and the engine swaped. The Last thing I want to do it repair this one just to find that it will let me down when I am miles from any civilisation in the Transivlanian mountains. This is the 2nd 200tdi thats failed on me in 3 years!!! The last one was blowing oil out due to a broken pistond ring just 18 months after buying it (cost me 1500 pounds as I had it done by a garage!!) And this one was a gold seal replacement in a disco that only had 90k on the clock, so its likley it had only done half that distance and it was owned by somone who never went above a couple of thousand revs (I know this becuase the turbo waste gate was jammed closed and we knew the previous owner, farmers wife). I'm totally gutted that I am having to find yet another engine. I thought these were bomb proof? I was one of the people who raved about them too. And its not due to bad maintanance since I;ve had them as I spend hours each day maintaining my 90. I think I'm one of the few drivers who genuinly checks all their fluids almost every day!! Every other problem I have had on the 90 I have spotted long before its become critical and had the part replaced before it was terminal. This just totaly took me by suprise. There wasnt any sign of it and as I said, the engine was sounding and running the best it ever did and I commented to that effect about 10 mins before this happend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WALFY Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 Is there no one that could drive a veh over for you. At least you'd save the cost of a flight. They get a cheap holiday at your place. Must be someone who would be willing. No old mates from work who are up for an adventure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 Scotian - the 200TDi engine is a good engine, you have just been unlucky or the engines have a dodgy history. Everything you have suggested to get it running again is dodgy - using second hand parts for instance. Your situation is the problem though. From what I can see - you need a new crank and shells (possibly conrod and matching big end cap), so about £350 here in the UK and you are up and running again with minimal risk to related problems that you have now. If you bodge it, then expect it to go bang again perhaps, but you would be wise to do the job properly as soon as possible. When you have the time, money, suitable work area, then do it yourself. Apart from specialist engineering work - everything else is pretty-much basic tools and you end-up with an engine that is as good as new. It's not like you would be doing it in the dark - any information can be supplied pretty quick on here, as you no doubt know already. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 Scotian, Thats one big gaint pile of pooh your in there Little I can add to whats been said already - other than to wish you well in whichever 'route' you go Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Posted May 12, 2008 Author Share Posted May 12, 2008 Just now I am in craiova. I need to be in Covasna (about 250 miles away) and that would be a sensible place to do an engine swap if I get that cheap disco. Will it be possible to just put on a new shell (maybe even smooth off the crank shaft with some emery paper) and put it back together just to drive it 250 miles to be in a more sensible location for the engine change? There I will have a garage, skilled and unskilled help and a place to break the disco (cant do it here in craiova). I know this sounds like a terrible bodge but it would save me a fortune in having the vehicle taken up there on a platform. For the sake of the cost of a shell, if the plan will work it will be the best thing for me. Any feed back on that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 Depends on how badly the crank is damaged.............. Clean up the journal as best as you can.................. fit new shells to ALL the big ends .......... and that will possibly see you OK for 250 gentle miles.......... If the crank is badly damaged (worn) then it will knock as soon as you start it up.................. You will also need to fit new push rods to No2 cylinder.............. In your position that would certainly be my next move.................. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Posted May 12, 2008 Author Share Posted May 12, 2008 Why new push rods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 The worn crank will throw the piston too far, which will hit the valves, which will bend the pushrods. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Posted May 12, 2008 Author Share Posted May 12, 2008 ok. so how will new ones help? wont it bend the new ones ? The old ones are not bent yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 I don't see why he would need new push rods either. The damaged bigend can be made to sit where is supposed to or close enough. And since the push rods didn't bend in the first place because the piston didn't hit the valves (I showed that in the pics), why will they bend with new bearing shells? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Posted May 12, 2008 Author Share Posted May 12, 2008 ok. So the order I need to make (just to get me to the end of a 250 mile trip) is the thickest shells I can buy (Its written further back on this thread) and just to help a bit more the con rod and bottom bit out of my old engine. Also maybe it would be ok to use on VERY local trips (a couple of miles to the shops) untill I get the discovery. If it fails then i'm just a coupleof miles out to be towed in... Is that the plan??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 First thing first. Do you intend to drive the Defender the other side of the mountains first and then go get the Disco or viceversa? I'd do viceversa. Get the Disco first and drive both vehicles over the mountains. I understood your lady friend has a license so you can have both vehicles to do the trip and have the Disco handy to tow the Defender if it will brake on the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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