Boothy Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 A book could easily be written on roll cages and I think enough information is in the technical archive to do so, but a good roll cage does not need to be expensive and a good well made, well planned cage can and will easily out perform many expensive ones. The ARC handbook is excellent as is the AWDC one on methods of securing and constructing cages and well worth aread before installing one, its like anything only as good as its foundations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
najw Posted June 9, 2008 Share Posted June 9, 2008 A book could easily be written on roll cages and I think enough information is in the technical archive to do so, but a good roll cage does not need to be expensive and a good well made, well planned cage can and will easily out perform many expensive ones. The ARC handbook is excellent as is the AWDC one on methods of securing and constructing cages and well worth aread before installing one, its like anything only as good as its foundations. The book has already been written and it is blue !!! The MSA Blue Book regs for off-road vehicle preparation were compiled from AWDC & ARC regs which pre-date the MSA's involvement with offroad. As Steve Hiatt has stated previously any other regulations would require scrutineers to exercise their judgement as to whether a cage complied and this would have no grounds if taken through the legal process. If you want to build cage that does not comply and be covered by MSA insurance then you would have to submit it for evaluation and possible testing at MIRA at your expense. If it passed then you would have a certificate allowing you to build as many as you like to that exact same specification and they would be legal. There are many who have gone before who have tried to beat the system and failed. The easiest thing at this stage is to keep the requirement for a 'legal' cage out of the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D9OSV Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Jim banging the helmet isn't really a good idea anyhow, motorcycle helmets if dropped are recommended to be replaced.you'll get a feeling of false security I think any car without a roof ie TC/HT running just canvas would be advised to wear a helmet to save them from intrusion. To many regulations will see the sport off down the road of the few who can afford everything, including trailers etc to tow the comp cars around. Hear what your saying Tony, And i know banging your hat is not a good thing, but better that than your head......... in most cases Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 The book has already been written and it is blue !!!The MSA Blue Book regs for off-road vehicle preparation were compiled from AWDC & ARC regs which pre-date the MSA's involvement with offroad. As Steve Hiatt has stated previously any other regulations would require scrutineers to exercise their judgement as to whether a cage complied and this would have no grounds if taken through the legal process. If you want to build cage that does not comply and be covered by MSA insurance then you would have to submit it for evaluation and possible testing at MIRA at your expense. If it passed then you would have a certificate allowing you to build as many as you like to that exact same specification and they would be legal. There are many who have gone before who have tried to beat the system and failed. The easiest thing at this stage is to keep the requirement for a 'legal' cage out of the equation. In a world were Event insurance is becoming harder and harder to get surly the MSA will soon be the only option there for being prepared is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daves3 Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Australian 4x4 racing has had mandatory helmets for the last 3 years since i've been into into it - but Aus racing seems vastly different (more high speed stuff) check out the Cross Country Drivers Association (CCDA www.ccda.org.au) for info on our Cages. If it is not to the required spec or hasn't been certified you don't race. Just another bit of info that could be modified for your use. Cheers Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 just a question but will they also be stipulating collars or HANS devices to be used with helmets? having raced bikes for most of my life I find it scary the way car drivers treat helmets - they are designed to disapate energy by falling apart, dink them or drop them and you've reduced thier capacity to protect you - build a car where they are regularly bashed against a roll cage and you may as well throw the hat in the bin. a bash or scrape would fail a hat with a decent scruitineer at an ACU race so will the 4x4 organisers follow that maxim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Abel Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Helmets will take a few small hits with no problem if you have ever tried to brake one you will know how strong they are, before i screwed up my sholders i used to compete in enduro's and ive had my fair share of falls, crashes etc. There is no way i was going to buy a new helmet evey time i fell off! If you do bang the helmet against the inside of the cab its probably a good idea to put a bit of foam on the contact area, if your helmet is badly scratched the scrutineers could say its unsafe Never buy a second hand helmet either, it might have had Jim's sweaty head in it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 its your brain ultimately so feel free to put it in a tin bucket with a napkin for a shock absorber fella, you may want to contact some helmet manufacturers and ask them about how a hat actually works before relying on it to provide some basic protection for a reasonably vital organ, or you could read HERE for a rough outline. if an organiser is proposing you must wear a hat in order to provide protection then it would be suicide from their insurance point of view to accept hats with any visible damage or the age old sticker bandage routine (unless they have an on-site Xray machine ) - its a waste of time wearing damaged hats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltwt1981 Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Be aware that the Blue BS stickered helmets will time out at the end of 2009 for MSA events. So get the red BS or better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Interesting article in my inbox this morning for all those thinking of getting a helmet: Dft Article: Motorcycle helmet ratings Which leads to: http://dft-1-sharp.eduserv.org.uk/ ...loads of advice on ratings, fit etc. It may seem good to cut corners, but 'it'll never happen to me' always happens to someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 its your brain ultimately so feel free to put it in a tin bucket with a napkin for a shock absorber fella, you may want to contact some helmet manufacturers and ask them about how a hat actually works before relying on it to provide some basic protection for a reasonably vital organ, or you could read HERE for a rough outline. if an organiser is proposing you must wear a hat in order to provide protection then it would be suicide from their insurance point of view to accept hats with any visible damage or the age old sticker bandage routine (unless they have an on-site Xray machine ) - its a waste of time wearing damaged hats I don't know about motorbike racing etc. but if your hemet is not clean so any defects eg scratches, dents etc. can be seen the scrutineer will not even look at it which means you can't compete. I have raced for years with and without neck braces and heve been end over end at speed in comps which can focus ones mortality some what, I did done some testing on a south African product which is a cheaper version of the hans device for a mate which was looking at marketing them in the uk I pursonaly found for racing I didn't it that restrictive supprisingly enough and was quite happy to wear it after a few laps of racing but for challenging and the current uk events its IMHO massive over kill and simply would not work. but you're right you need to treat a helmet with kit gloves My choice of words could have been better (bash or scrape) mud and bush scratches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orgasmic Farmer Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 So if I crawl trough the undergrowth to fix a tree strop (which I do at every event) and scratch the laquer off my £300 lid first time out then I am going to fail next scrutineering as there are visible signs of damage of indeterminate origin necessitating a new lid before I can compete again...... End of sport me thinks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D9OSV Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Lets put this into context. Quite simply, any helmet is better than no helmet........Full stop end of story. Jez, don't panic as you have no intention of racing on this isle you are quite safe. The Aussies never used to have a helmet rule until a few years ago........... Then someone died. Lets make it happen before that happens to us. But please let us not tie oursleves down with red tape (Yes we do need rules, but not B*llsh*t) Perhaps let us look at the CCDA in Aus for some advice or inspiration. But let us just get things started by all agreeing that HELMETS are needed ! Or is it going to take a death to kick start us in to action Jim Ps: This where we are headed, and i would like helmets to be complusory sooner rather than later....... Check this out : http://www.mudrhino.com.au/Movies/EngelTeaser2.wmv Imagine doing that without a helmet ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WALFY Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Nice clip that Jim. Looks good fun. Wouldn't want to be a co-driver for some of the teams. The way they launched their trucks towards the co-pilot . Some good spectacular stages but where in the UK are you ngoing to get stages like that for a whole event? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 The speed is the main difference there Helmets etc a necessity. The UK events are thankfully somewhat slower. each to their own. If I was driving at that sort of speed a helmet would be 1st on the list of PPE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 no panic involved Jim, somewhat more amused than anything else - simply applying the nanny state litigation mentality to its logical end point FYI - a compression damaged helmet IS more dangerous than no helmet, F=MA? as for my intentions? I think I know them better than anyone but thanks for the tip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D9OSV Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 as for my intentions? I think I know them better than anyone but thanks for the tip A pleasure So any chance of seeing you and Mouse competeing in this country? Or have we only pics and film clips to watch? Many good events you could enter, but you might have to wear a helmet Would be great for all to have a chance to drive with you? And compare their skills and vehicles to yours? I am sure many would jump at the chance Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I guess we wont be seeing you at Vepsskii then Jim? no need to spoil your quiff there shall we return to the topic or are you trying to get into some form of sidetrack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D9OSV Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Of course you are right........ I hope that many will read this thread and start to wear helmets without having to be asked. This would do away with the need for many regs and generally make things safer for everyone. Jim Ps: So, you coming out to play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Abel Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Of course you are right........I hope that many will read this thread and start to wear helmets without having to be asked. This would do away with the need for many regs and generally make things safer for everyone. Jim Ps: So, you coming out to play? Uk events are for girls i guess , thats why helmets are generally not used. Jez, come and do Tay this year, it would be nice to see the mouse in action, ill come and pull you out if your hydraulics are not up to the challenge Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 and my daddys bigger than yours... get a grip have you tried ringing a helmet manufacturer? perhaps ask about how to identify compression damage to the lining of a previously hit helmet? perhaps we need Neals input on the liability in reference to PPE meeting a minimum standard to be eligable to enter a competition - and specifically if that places the responsibility of "fit for purpose" onto the organisers and how they propose to judge at what point a helmet is beyond its useful life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 and my daddys bigger than yours... get a grip have you tried ringing a helmet manufacturer? perhaps ask about how to identify compression damage to the lining of a previously hit helmet? perhaps we need Neals input on the liability in reference to PPE meeting a minimum standard to be eligable to enter a competition - and specifically if that places the responsibility of "fit for purpose" onto the organisers and how they propose to judge at what point a helmet is beyond its useful life? Some of the aus comps you see the guy's wearing climbing helmets (or what look like) which is still better than nothing. I was under the impression that some MSA Scrutineers are trained to do visual checks on helmets thats how they can issue the fit for motorsport sticker's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 yep - same thing in the north Jules, but as wearing hats is a matter of choice there, no liability is placed on the organisers (ergo no one gets lumped in court), Cannoe hats are popular because they're light, comms kit fits them easily and they breathe nicely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D9OSV Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I hope that many will read this thread and start to wear helmets without having to be asked.This would do away with the need for many regs and generally make things safer for everyone. Jim As said before, If we do this we can all duck under the binds of the red tape Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathtub Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 againist the speed bans, Jim Bet you are take that away & you are Proper F***ed just like DE Germans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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