Troddenmasses Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 HELP - Is there anybody out there who knows anything about domestic plumbing? Trying to fix a leaking sink yesterday, Mrs. Troddenmasses decided that 'we' should replace the old sink with a nice shiny new one. No problem, thinks I. I turn off the main water tap, then the 3 other taps in the airing cupboard. I drain off the bit of water in the pipe, then cut through them with my nice new air hacksaw Sink removed - no problems. About 5 minutes later, I was in the garage, and I heard a strange sploshing sound in the kitchen, only to find that the now cut off pipe is spewing boiling hot water everywhere - floor, ceiling, me. The only thing that I could do is stick my thumb over the end of the pipe to stop the flood. The trouble is that it was rather too hot, so I had to keep on changing thumbs. Each time I did this, hot water sprayed either in my ear, or up my armpit. I noticed a few clanking noises from upstairs, but didn't think much of it as I was busy burning my fingers trying to stop hot water from flooding my house. When the job was completed, I went back upstairs to turn the stop-cocks on, in the airing cupboard, only to find this: My hot water tank seems to have tried very hard to turn itself inside out Any of you chaps have any idea what could have caused this, and what should I say to my insurance company? I have looked at the policy, and if it was a maintenance issue or technical fault, I pay. If it was accidental, they will pay. Should I just tell them that I cut through a pipe, and this happened? Help - please...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 are you sure that won't polish right out? I think you should have drained the tank or isolated it with the gate valve. it appears you turned off the cold feed to the tank but the hot water escaping caused the vacum. I would put it down to experience, buy and fit a new cylinder £100 approx if you can do the fitting( I would question this though) your insurers would be less than pleased if you try to decieve them and they find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troddenmasses Posted August 18, 2005 Author Share Posted August 18, 2005 You reckon a bit of T-cut then. I think that I will leave that one to a real plumber........ I looked for a valve to isolate it, and turned off all the valves in there before hand - that's why I asked the question - what the hell happened here? I'm not trying to deceive anybody - it is just about how exactly you phrase things. "I cut a pipe, and this happened" sounds like an accident to me, that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 are you sure that won't polish right out? Priceless Tony. BTW, I'm sorry for your troubles there TM, but as Aussie hot water systems are absolutely nothing like yours, I'm of no use whatsoever (not for the first time either I'm told). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 <Head in hands> Anybody want a team-mate for Seven Sisters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troddenmasses Posted August 18, 2005 Author Share Posted August 18, 2005 There is an upside, at least I won't be asked to do any plumbing again. My wife is quite into craft type things, and all she said was "Ooooh - make sure you keep the old tank, I need some copper sheet to make a water feature for the garden" Oh well - I had better go out to work now, and sort this little lot out later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 You reckon a bit of T-cut then. I think that I will leave that one to a real plumber........I looked for a valve to isolate it, and turned off all the valves in there before hand - that's why I asked the question - what the hell happened here? I'm not trying to deceive anybody - it is just about how exactly you phrase things. "I cut a pipe, and this happened" sounds like an accident to me, that's all. TM there is a cold feed to the tank this pushes the hot out of the top to the taps. thats why I suggested a complete drain open the taps etc I bet when you opened them you heard the air getting in with the vacum in the tank. I wasn't suggestiing you were going to decieve them. check with yours insurers mine is less than £1000 they don't come and look what went wrong just pay. I would put it down to experience and just fit another tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 you could also take it out and blow it back up with a compressor then refitting is a reversal of removal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02GF74 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 you could also take it out and blow it back up with a compressor then refitting is a reversal of removal. that is not as daft as it sounds; this method was used to take dents out of motorbike petrol tanks; other than that some body filler and metallic copper paint will have it looking as new - where did the insulation go BTW? This seem very strange; I find it hard to believe that draining the tank would cause this kind of damage; my own theory would be along the lines that it was partly full, the immersion heater came on to heat up water partially filling the tank with steam, the condensing steam then created the vacuum to collapse the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niall_CSK Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Maybe not very funny to you TM but I couldn't stop myself when I saw that, I like your take on the + side. I agree, running the water out would not have created enough vacumn to do that unless your loft is half way up Ben Nevis and the kitchen is in Fort Augustus, these tanks are normally built to take 5 bar from the inside so they are not exactly flimsy. You don't have a power shower by any chance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 you could also take it out and blow it back up with a compressor then refitting is a reversal of removal. that is not as daft as it sounds; this method was used to take dents out of motorbike petrol tanks; other than that some body filler and metallic copper paint will have it looking as new - where did the insulation go BTW? This seem very strange; I find it hard to believe that draining the tank would cause this kind of damage; my own theory would be along the lines that it was partly full, the immersion heater came on to heat up water partially filling the tank with steam, the condensing steam then created the vacuum to collapse the tank. partly full whould mean the imersion element was in free air as it enters the tank at the top Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 I don't understand that - if the system is the same as mine (and I did change my own tank last year, a 30 min job turned into an all day one as the coil pipes which I thought were the same were about 10mm out so I had to re-do the whole fr*ggin thing ) there should be a cold feed from the header tank into the bottom of the cylinder, a hot feed out the top of the cylinder to the taps, and from that, there should be a vent pipe which goes up to above the level of the header tank (most I have seen actually then go over and drain back into the header tank), these are there to prevent exactly this sort of thing: any pressure or vacuum in the tank, if the water in the cylinder boils for some reason the excess pressure just blows up the vent and back into the header tank but it would let air in, in the reverse direction. So it should be completely impossible to get a vacuum in the tank. I wonder if the vent pipe is blocked, or not even there? Post a picture taken from a bit further back so all the ins and outs are visible; I'm curious to see how the plumbing is wired up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troddenmasses Posted August 18, 2005 Author Share Posted August 18, 2005 Turns out that it wasn't my fault (Shhhh - don't tell my wife, she might get me doing more jobs) It seems that a power shower was installed about a year ago (I have only been here about 6 weeks) and the plumber who put it in bodged the job. Instead of taking the hot feed for the shower directly from the tank, he took the easy option, and tapped into the tank vent pipe. This meant that when the shower was turned on, it would have started sucking air in, instead of water. To solve that problem, he blocked off the vent When I came to drain the hot water system down, it couldn't suck in any air to replace the missing water, and you saw the damage done. I would not believe that simple atmospheric air pressure could do that, but I have now seen it with my own eyes. It seems that it was something of a blessing in disguise. If the immersion heater temperature sensor had failed, and got too hot, the tank would have exploded, taking the house and whatever was inside, with it. A lucky escape, I guess. Thanks for the repair tips though (Polish right out - I ask you) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Oi!!! What have the Poles ever done to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 It seems that a power shower was installed about a year ago (I have only been here about 6 weeks) and the plumber who put it in bodged the job. Instead of taking the hot feed for the shower directly from the tank, he took the easy option, and tapped into the tank vent pipe. I have had bad experiences with "professional" plumbers which is why I now do my own, I am cr&p at it but at least it is free instead of being cr&p and expensive! I had two floods in my new house in the first 18 months after it was built, one was a poorly fitted radiator pipe and the other was a bodge up in the power shower plumbing, it was all put in as the walls were being put up so I had to cut a hole in the wall to fix it I'm still surprised it collapsed the tank with just gravity feeding the water out though - I would have thought the water would have just stopped running but I suppose it depends on how much head there is between the tank and the tap, my tank is in the kitchen with only the header tank up in the loft so it wouldn't happen with mine. The force exerted with a pressure drop is huge if you think about it - a perfect vacuum would be 14.7psi and over a couple of square feet of tank side that is up to 4200lb of pressure or nearly two tonnes! a bit of copper isn't going to get in the way of that even if there was only a few PSI pressure difference the force is still quite a lot on a weedy bit of copper plate - which is why there is a vent pipe in there I guess. What you need is a Hybrid_from_Hell spec hot water cylinder made of 18mm titanium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niall_CSK Posted August 19, 2005 Share Posted August 19, 2005 You don't have a power shower by any chance That was the only way I could see it happening unfortunately. Small consolation but at least it looks like he fitted a good quality pump The price & availability of Titanium has gone through the roof in the last year or so, China & US soaking all the production up to make aeroplanes & fancy golf clubs, can't really blame that on H f H but it's the best reason I've heard for banning Golf completely. Get rid of stupid fashion clothing, boring bar talk & uncessary travel to exotic golf courses in one fell swoop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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