jericho Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 I am planning a timing belt (synchronous belt) drive for a hydraulic pump on my landrover,and know nothing about such things. There seams to be many industry standard tooth profiles and pitches. Can anyone tell me the tooth profile and pitch used on tdi engines?It would be handy if I could use the same belt type and/or pulleys as on my 300 tdi. Does anyone on here have a timing belt driven pump? Any advice would be welcome before I waste a load of money having pulleys made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Jerry - I don't know much about tooth belt drives but the first step is to understand the power and speed requirements of your pump - this will tell you the width of the belt you need, you'll certainly need this to spec your system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoltan Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 I am planning a timing belt (synchronous belt) drive for a hydraulic pump on my landrover,and know nothing about such things. There seams to be many industry standard tooth profiles and pitches. Can anyone tell me the tooth profile and pitch used on tdi engines?It would be handy if I could use the same belt type and/or pulleys as on my 300 tdi. Does anyone on here have a timing belt driven pump? Any advice would be welcome before I waste a load of money having pulleys made. Getting a belt of your desired length will be your biggest headache. The square tooth L series belt tooth profile (Ford Pinto or BDA cam belt) in a 3/8" pitch is available in a number of widths and a wide number of tooth counts. Most drive specialist suppliers will be able to supply pulleys with pilot bores that you can machine to your shafts. These people http://www.hpc-companies.com/ do a useful catalogue with a gazillion gears, pulleys, belts sprockets and everything else in. Much of it is off the shelf. Quality is OK and prices fair, the nice thing is if you are creating something you can buy one offs or each thing. They will also put keyways and splines etc in at additional cost but that saves hunting around to find someone to do it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush65 Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 The pressed pulleys used on the injection pump and camshaft of the 300Tdi are hardly suitable for their purpose and should not, IMHO be considered for driving a hydraulic pump. Remember that the 300Tdi timing belt is inside a case, which protects it. If you will be driving in muddy conditions, or through muddy water you will probably have problems with a timing belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milemarker Type S Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 I believe Jez has quoted the appropriate toothed belt a couple of times on previous threads- the 'issue' with using them seems to come from them needing to be aligned pretty much bang on (0.05 degrees seesm to ring a bell?) to stop the belt walking off the pulleys... That is without the issues raised in relation to crud, sticks and stones interfering... You could always use a chain I take it the serpentine multi v-belt was not up to the job then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxtherotti Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 where i used to work we ran a tuscan race car that had external oil pump for the dry sump and any time it went near a gravel trap it used to trash the toothed drive belt while they work very well they do need protecting well rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jericho Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 I take it the serpentine multi v-belt was not up to the job then? Correct.Not up to the job of a 30cc pump and 100cc motor driving a milemarker - too much slip. I am going to have another look at direct crank drive,but I am very limited for space - could possibly squeeze it in if I don't use a clutch,so the pump would run permanently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 hi just thinking if its for the series in your avatar could you bring the drive shaft under the rad and then mount the pump where you have more space matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Rather than a multi-v have you considered several single-v belts running together? They tend to be able to transmit more power than a multi-v. We have nearly 20kw going through 3 belts of fan belt proportions at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 If the belts slipping then presumably it needs more preload? http://www.gizmology.net/pulleysbelts.htm Give that calculator a bash? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Rather than a multi-v have you considered several single-v belts running together? They tend to be able to transmit more power than a multi-v. We have nearly 20kw going through 3 belts of fan belt proportions at work. Similarly the 24V FFR Series Land Rovers with ~5KW(mechanical load) alternator running off the 2.25 petrol engine just uses 2 regular V belts and have never had them slip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&mv80 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 i think the problem is when you put water and mud into the equation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Maybe... but the toothed belt I would think more likely to fail completely through mud/small stone ingress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&mv80 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 agreed, i think the only way is to either completley encase the belt in some sort of dirt/waterproof housing, this would then mean you could poss use v belts so you dont need such i tight tolerence on the alignment, or use a mechanical link rather than a belt. i have the same problem on my own truck, is there anything out there that you could use to send the drive through 90 degrees, you could then come off the front pulley and then through 90 degrees giving you more room, i was also thinking about the possibility of trying to mod a pto take off for a pto(shaft) winch, this would include the clutch and bring you to the side of the eng where you would able to attatch the pump, i havent checked measurements so not sure if it would be possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jericho Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 hi,just thinking if its for the series in your avatar could you bring the drive shaft under the rad and then mount the pump where you have more space Yes,I had the same idea.Haven't had time to measure up yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jericho Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 If the belts slipping then presumably it needs more preload? http://www.gizmology.net/pulleysbelts.htm Give that calculator a bash? Some rough figues give 140 lb of pre-load!The other components run by the serpentine belt are already showing signs of bearing failure. Maybe a tripple v-belt would do it,but I am losing all faith in belts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 hi my final year project for college was to design a hydraulic winch, when i was looking at pump drive i compared v belts, crank driven and from the transfer box. i found it would be possible to get belts to work however as you've noted above it would end up stressing existing components not designed for that type of load, from the transfer box would work well but you would have to be very carefull with pump motor combination to retain any useful drive assist. so i went for a crank drive system but designed for a defender with lots of space also including a clutch because not many pumps will take kindly to being spun at full engine rpm. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milemarker Type S Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Two V belts just about cope with running two ZF74 pumps- when the winch was stalled in high gear, especially when wet, the belts were on the point of slipping. They would defineitely not be up to running a proper pump at the higher pressures required to reduce the size of the winch motor to speed the whole thing up. Even the three V belts on a friends truck are not coping well running a 40 cc/rev pump- it will also be interesting to see how the bearings on the related components will survive with the additional forces... It may require a tie bar between the pulleys or possibly even an additional bearing outside the crank pulley as would a large supercharger. Multi-V belts seem to have the same issues of slippage and side loading... Toothed belts have the issue of tiny misalignment tolerances- plus their dislike of debris etc... The sensible options (excluding PTO drive) left appear to be. 1. Chain drive al la the Type R...not liked by most... although it appears to be being used by quite a few without any issues. 2. Pump and mechanical clutch mounted direct the end of the crank- electromagnetic clutches do not appear to be up to the job despite the figures quoted for them... 3. Pump and clutch driven by a prop shaft from the end of the crank. Unless anyone can suggest any more? I am currently going the direct drive route which requires about 280mm clearance in front of the end of the crank with a group 2 pump (26-30cc/rev) and mechanical clutch. There were a few on here who were in the process of putting together packages to direct drive pumps from the crank but none seemed to have been sorted- anyone know of any as I am looking to sort mine now?- I have tried PM'ing Old Spot but got no response- anyone have any ideas how to contact him? Oh and I would definitely look to include a clutch Jerry- unless you can find a pump that would be happy to run at full engine speed constantly- plus have the issue of the huge flow of fluid you would have circulating at high engine revs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jericho Posted December 2, 2009 Author Share Posted December 2, 2009 Type S - I know that Oldspot has had a message from you re the coupling - I was round his house last night - he is just a little 'relaxed' about responding to enquiries. I would like to fit a clutch,but it looks like I am left with 2 options- chaindrive with clutch,or direct drive without.There is an outside chance that i could queeze in a prop with clutch and pump. What size motor are you going with?I thought I might try an 80cc motor - speed is good! My 30cc pump was running above engine rpm,so was equivalent to a 35cc direct driven pump,and the low gear speed was very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milemarker Type S Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 I am looking at the largest group 2 pump I can source- max seems to be 30cc/rev though the supplier I am looking at (harrier fluid power) only does up to 26cc/rev. This allows the use of a group 1/2 mechanical clutch which is much shorter than the group 3 one by a long way- I only have 310mm of clearance between the end of the crank and the radiator. The maximum flowrate of the 1/2 inch valve I have is 70 l/min so with the 26 cc/rev pump the max flow would be at 2700 rpm of the engine which seems about right- though I am not 100% sure that the pump will be happy at this speed... one way to find out!!! I am looking at a 100cc EPRM motor- seems to be a good trade off between capacity and torque- I believe it is the same as is used in the type R? If you go the prop route have a chat with John Sales- Saley. (thank you John for the chat and the info) If you go the chain route have a chat with Peter at FirstFourOffroad-who have taken over from Allan Byrne at 4x4winches- Peter has been very helpful and is far more customer friendly than Allen ever was... Or indeed John who again was very helpful in discussing this option as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 hi speed is good but is not much use without some torque as well:D it took me a long time to work out how to choose the pump and motor, i don't know how far you've got here's the method i used i hope its of some use: i started by asking what i wanted the winch to do in terms of line speed and pull, after that you already know what gear ratios are in the winch and the drum size so can work out what input you need into the winch to get your target performance. Then get your hands on a motor brochure and start looking for one that fits, a specification your going to have to choose is the system pressure in general a higher pressure gives more power but less speed so its a compromise. Once you have a possible motor you can look at pumps, taking into consideration what engine speed you would like it to be most efficient at and the system pressure you chose earlier. From your posts i assume you already have a pump which will narrow your motor choice. I have a spread sheet to help with calculations if you post up winch specs, engine speed and pressure then i am happy to run the numbers through if it would help. HTH Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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