200 tdi Timing Problem

[Marks 110]

Just been helping a friend replace the tming belt on his 200 tdi 110. Adjusted the timing slightly as it was out. Just got it all back together and its running very rough, lots of smoke etc. (I'm sure the timings now slightly out)

I've just removed the inspection cover on the timing case and inserted timing pin then checked flywheel housing and grove is lined up perfectly. What have we done wrong?

I can't think what could be wrong unless we've damaged the pump (trying to turn it when locked) but then surely it wouldn't run at all. I did mistakenly loosen the large nut in the centre of the FIP pully whilst trying to rock the pump to get the pin in?

The biggest problem is my friend is due to travel back to London tomorrow!

Any ideas?

Mark

[simonb]

You should have not touched the centre nut but loosened the 3 small nuts to rotate the FIP pulley slightly to get the timing pin in. On a Tdi it will run lumpy and smoke if you are only ever so slightly out on the timing alignment - less than 1 tooth.

I'm not sure "how you get it back" though... sorry..

[Marks 110]

You should have not touched the centre nut but loosened the 3 small nuts to rotate the FIP pulley slightly to get the timing pin in. On a Tdi it will run lumpy and smoke if you are only ever so slightly out on the timing alignment - less than 1 tooth.

I'm not sure "how you get it back" though... sorry..

Yeah the centre nut on the FIP pulley came loose accidentally as it wasn't very tight. Tightened it back up straight away and didn't see anything move. Hope this isn't the cause of the problem as I can't find any reference to it any of my manuals.

Just confused as to how it can run so badly with everything lined up perfectly. Just stripped off the cover and cam pulley dot is also dead on the arrow with FIP and flywheel timing pins in.

Mark

Mark

[western]

it's not in the vehicle manual because it's not meant to be undone, IIRC the boss the pulley is bolted too with the 3 small bolts is a taper fit to it's mating part, not sure if the mating part can move fore/aft within the FIP body.

the 3 small bolts should be slackened once the timing pins are in place & the belt is fitted/tensioned correctly, then the 3 small bolts are tightened, rotate engine by hand 2 full turns & refit timing pins & retension belt, if you haven't done that it could be the prblem.

[PeterW]

it's not in the vehicle manual because it's not meant to be undone, IIRC the boss the pulley is bolted too with the 3 small bolts is a taper fit to it's mating part, not sure if the mating part can move fore/aft within the FIP body.

the 3 small bolts should be slackened once the timing pins are in place & the belt is fitted/tensioned correctly, then the 3 small bolts are tightened, rotate engine by hand 2 full turns & refit timing pins & retension belt, if you haven't done that it could be the prblem.

Is the timing pin supposed to fit when the pulley is 'at rest' between 2 injection cycles..? on mine, I have to start to turn the pulley clockwise as though against a spring for probably 4-5mm before the pin will line up and go in.

Normal..?

cheers

Pete

[western]

Timing pin will only fit if FIP is in the correct place, the boss the pulley bolts to has a cutout for the timing pin, IIRC when I did my timing belt recently the FIP seemed to be 'at rest'

[PeterW]

Timing pin will only fit if FIP is in the correct place, the boss the pulley bolts to has a cutout for the timing pin, IIRC when I did my timing belt recently the FIP seemed to be 'at rest'

Makes me think mine has been 'adjusted' slightly....

Hmmm

[Marks 110]

Makes me think mine has been 'adjusted' slightly....

Hmmm

Before I took off the old belt the FIP timing pin wouldn't fit in with the pin locked in the grove in the flywheel housing. That is why I changed the timing.

I've just backed the FIP pulley off by 1 tooth to see if its any better (the pin won't quite fit which is how it was before). I'm about to start it up. Do you think it will be OK without the timing cover on if it's only run for a few seconds?

Is it possible to rebuild an engine in such a way that the timing is out even with pump, cam and cranks aligned?

Thanks Mark

[T1G UP]

was the engine turned over twice before re assembly?

shows up the timing issues if done.

go back and start again following the guide on here

[Les Henson]

If you only loosened the centre nut, then it's highly unlikely that you have moved the hub from it's original position - they are very difficult to remove - even with the nut completeley removed. I would look elsewhere before going the expensive route.

Les.

[Marks 110]

If you only loosened the centre nut, then it's highly unlikely that you have moved the hub from it's original position - they are very difficult to remove - even with the nut completeley removed. I would look elsewhere before going the expensive route.

Les.

Have backed off the FIP pulley by 1 tooth which seems to be the position it started in. About to start the engine for a few seconds without the timing case on, will this do any harm?

Is it possible to rebuild an engine with the timing marks set wrongly? The engine was rebuilt a few years ago and the timing belt hasn't been looked at since.

Mark

[Les Henson]

You can run the engine for approx 20-seconds with no harm. If it's in good condition then it should start straight away and tickover niceley. Press the accelerator pedal and the engine should rev straight away. If it does this, then it should be fine.

Les.

[Marks 110]

You can run the engine for approx 20-seconds with no harm. If it's in good condition then it should start straight away and tickover niceley. Press the accelerator pedal and the engine should rev straight away. If it does this, then it should be fine.

Les.

Thanks Les,

Will wait till the morning and give the engine a try.

Mark

[Marks 110]

Thanks Les,

Will wait till the morning and give the engine a try.

Mark

Wouldn't start at all this time - timing obviously way out.

Had another fiddle and set timing by eye to what is was before I changed belt ie. with FIP timing pin in the crank key was just before the twelve o'clock position and grove in flywheel not even visible.

Engine now runs much better, smoother and no smoke although I've only tested it for a few seconds as timing case is still off.

I think this confirms there is a timing issue but how do I set the timing right if its wrong when everything is in the correct place? If you see what I mean!

Mark

[Gromit]

Does the cam timing dot line up correctly? Is it just that the crank timing mark/flywheel is incorrect?

Can you find TCD?

[western]

Are you timing the crank by using the Narrow slot in the edge of the flywheel ?

& the crankshaft woodruff key at 12 o'clock in line with the arrow in timing case.

[Marks 110]

Are you timing the crank by using the Narrow slot in the edge of the flywheel ?

& the crankshaft woodruff key at 12 o'clock in line with the arrow in timing case.

Landy is now running well and on its way back to London.

Just to re-cap I had the timing set as follows

Woodruff key at 12 o'clock and timing pin engaged in flywheel grove

Dot on camshaft pulley aligned with arrow

Injection pump timing pin fully engaged and also dot on pulley aligned

But in this state the engine ran badly chucking out loads of smoke

So I set back the cranshaft and camshaft pulleys back so woodruff key is at 11 o'clock (ish) and dot on cam pulley is 1 tooth (ish) before the arrow with injection pump in correct position.

Now the engine runs fine with no smoke.

They only thing I can think of is that the boss on the injection pump shaft isn't set correctly so it looks like the pump will have to go to an injection specialist. I'm sure the boss hasn't moved whilst doing the job as the timing was previously in this position with old belt. I know the vehicle has had 3 reconditoned injection pumps fitted in the last 5-6 years so maybe something went wrong then?

Has anybody else come accros this?

Thanks for your help.

Mark

[Marks 110]

Landy is now running well and on its way back to London.

Just to re-cap I had the timing set as follows

Woodruff key at 12 o'clock and timing pin engaged in flywheel grove

Dot on camshaft pulley aligned with arrow

Injection pump timing pin fully engaged and also dot on pulley aligned

But in this state the engine ran badly chucking out loads of smoke

So I set back the cranshaft and camshaft pulleys back so woodruff key is at 11 o'clock (ish) and dot on cam pulley is 1 tooth (ish) before the arrow with injection pump in correct position.

Now the engine runs fine with no smoke.

They only thing I can think of is that the boss on the injection pump shaft isn't set correctly so it looks like the pump will have to go to an injection specialist. I'm sure the boss hasn't moved whilst doing the job as the timing was previously in this position with old belt. I know the vehicle has had 3 reconditoned injection pumps fitted in the last 5-6 years so maybe something went wrong then?

Has anybody else come accros this?

Thanks for your help.

Mark

Just checked the timing on my own 110 and everything lines up perfectly. Even more convinced the problem with my friends vehicle is related to the injection pump.