sotal Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 I've not had time to do anything at my Land Rover (series 2a) - don't think I've started it since early this year. Anyway I've tried a couple of times but can't get it to start. The main part of the problem is the Battery. I've got 3 of the big 620 type 96amp /700amp cranking batteries, but I think they've all had their day now. One of the batteries charges normally - takes a good while to charge and the charger reports all OK and fully charged - but then this battery seems to die as soon as I turn the key and then that's it all empty! Another battery just seems completley dead and the other one appears to be OK and tries a few times to start the engine but fails then gets too weak to continue. When I've tried I've hooked our diesel car up to give an extra boost as well as using the batteries fully charged but still can't get it to start. I've turned it over by hand a little which is very tough to do just to make sure nothing was seized. I've tried a bit of easy start but am doing this on my own so have to spray it in the intake then run round and turn the key. Is it as simple as I just need a new battery and all will be well? am I just not getting enough current over the jump leads? (very heavy duty jump leads for starting lorries) As a final note anyone know how much scrap batteries are fetching at the scrapyards now? I'd heard you could get quite a bit for them. I've got 3 of these big ones and 2 little ones, may help to go towards a new one! Or does anyone know how to revive them a little, the water in them is all about 2/3rds none are empty. Or any tests etc?? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 To answer a bit of my own post. The batteries weigh approx 130kgs in total, the local scrappy is giving 40p per kilo so about £52 - does that sound about right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Sounds like all the batteries are probably goosed - if you can unscrew the vent caps and peek inside, you'll probably see the plate are buckled or broken up. If you scrap all three, you may well get enough for a new battery - think I got nearly 15 quid apeice for the last ones I weighed in. If the batteries are well gone, even jumping won't help as the knackered battery will be sucking up all the juice. Once when I was in Kenya, a guy came up to me in a fuel station asking for jump leads, his landcruiser had knackered batteries, and he wasn't supposed to turn the engine off, but forgot when he went to get fuel. I tried jump starting him for ages, but the dead batteries just swallowed all the charge. Then a guy came out of the garage with a new big diesel battery, turned it upside down with acid pouring out all over, then let the terminals touch the car batteries terminals - massive spark, car started Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landy-Novice Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 with easy start, a normal ignition, (with out push start) leave the ignition on and stick a screw driver across the starter solenoid while using the easy start. hth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Personally would be checking earth straps and the like, as well as battery condition, you may well find you just aren't getting enough juice to the starter. Undo, clean and tighten all earth and large battery cables and try again.... Also, try jumping it from another vehicle without a battery in your truck connected, see if it starts, if not then it is not necessarily your batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 Won't start with just jump leads connected and no battery in place. I'll give the screwdriver trick ago although last time I did it that way I lost most of the hairs on my arm when the big sparks ignited the easy start! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 I'd be suspicious of the earth straps and starter terminals in that case then... to eliminate this, try connecting the positive of the jumping battery to the starter motor terminal AND the battery positive, and rather than putting the earth jump lead on the battery lead, connect straight to the engine block (you'r eproibably doing this already though, right? ) Do the +ve lead on the starter with great care of course, you do NOT want it to short -two persons are handy here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 I've tried the negative jump lead in a variety of places to get the best connection with no difference. Will try the positive too - gone dark though now Have got a slight issue with the starter motor (or ignition switch) which has been like that for a year or so. When I turn the key from the orange light to actually starting some times it just clicks, I then have to turn back and then forward again and it usually starts to turn then. Not sure if that is related? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Possibly, sounds like if you were having the problem with a GOOD battery on it, the brushes in the starter are worn -I changed mine out recently on my 24V lightweight, cost me all of £12 delivered Other option is a poor solenoid (which the solenoid test will eliminate), bad earth, bad +ve connection... It's a petrol? If so, use a blow lamp in the inlet rather than easy start, just don't light it Have you checked for spark/fuel? BTW, I can start my lightweight from cold on the cranking handle Easy start on a diesel is very bad news, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landy-Novice Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 When I turn the key from the orange light to actually starting some times it just clicks, I then have to turn back and then forward again and it usually starts to turn then. Not sure if that is related? your solenoid is stuffed!!! i had this, i replaced it, then that went, i 'dissected' it and found it was full of rust and a found a small factory hole in the top, so on my new one i filled it in with silicon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 It's a diesel - I know Easy start is bad but it's a last resort! Just had another quick play in the dark. I connected jump leads across to just the wires so no battery on my landrover. I then connected a jump lead from the negative jump lead to the starter motor earth wire. I also connected the positive jump lead to another jump lead which I connected to a long screwdriver which I used to short the starter motor. Half the time it just spins the starter motor which happily spins away. If I catch it right it tries to start the engine and will turn over perhaps two or three times then just can't turn any more - the screwdriver then just glows red and melts. The revs barely change if at all on the car supplying the jump. It has done this in the past and the car was unable to jump it then but at the time I had a Discovery as well and that would tend to give enough juice to jump it, but if it's not even affecting the revs of the car supplying then I wouldn't have thought it would be that would it? I gave easy start a try with the screwdriver starting the car, but it just wasn't turning fast enough to start even on easy start Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 RIGHT Nice detective work..... and the winner is... more than likely anyways..... the starter motor bearing has collapsed, or a winding insulation has broken down and is now shorting to earth. This is shown in the slow cranking speed, the fact you have eliminated the battery, solenoid and wiring and it still won't turn over at a good speed. The reason it 'tries' to turn sometimes is because the starter has cooled down a bit, then as it runs the metal gets hot, resistance increases therefore less power getting to turn things round and it packs up.. The fact that it fails to engage sometimes shows the starter as being worn electrically/machanically or really filthy on the bendix, either way it is time to remove it -easy peasy, just 4 nuts Be grateful it's not a 24V version, where they made the starter *JUST* too big to get past the down pipe (like 3 mm) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landy-Novice Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) been beaten to it... Edited October 24, 2011 by Landy-Novice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 Damn I had a spare starter motor in the garage and sold it a year or so ago as it had just sat there for so long! So what would the recommendation be? Can they be serviced? Or replace with 2nd hand or replace with new? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 If at all possible, i would try a bump start just to check, once its been running and warm you can once again see if it will jump start. to confirm it is a starter issue although it does look like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 To be honest from previous experience I think when it does start it will continue to start afterwards. Problem with bump starting is that my drive slopes down with a flat bit at the bottom. The Land Rover is at the bottom on the flat bit facing up. I'm currently wanting to start it so I can drive forward, then turn it around and drive back down and drive into the garage. May have to tow it up the drive then bump it down? Although it's not a huge drive so may hit the house before it starts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted October 30, 2011 Author Share Posted October 30, 2011 Right, I tried further testing - left the best battery on charge for days - at thi spoint it's good enough to turn the engine over very slowly. Hooked up jump leads and used my inlaws discovery - no difference it just doesn't want to turn over, you get maybe 3 turns before it gives up. He tried all the same sort of things as me including the screwdriver to short the starter motor, and a jump lead direct to the starter. He did however comment on the fact that when the starter didn't engage properly and the motor just spun freely that it didn't sound good. He came to the same conclusion that it was probably the starter motor, as I've never touched it on the series (which I've had for about 6 years) I decided to pull it off. So it eventually came off after a bit of a struggle due to lack of space. But... It all looks good to me, I've pulled it apart and everything looks in great condition, bushes all look good etc. So are there any particular bits to look at? Any bench tests? Oh - forgot to mention before that we fitted a series 3 5MB engine to this 2a so it's got a 1980's engine and the starter that it came with - no idea if it has ever been replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landy-Novice Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 could it not that spring thing that engages the starter to the fly wheel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 That will be the bendix then Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted October 30, 2011 Author Share Posted October 30, 2011 It only does the free spinning bit when you try and short it, if you turn with the key it either tries to turn the engine very slowly, or it it just clicks and you have to release and turn again. Probably about 60% tries to turn / 40% just clicks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted October 30, 2011 Author Share Posted October 30, 2011 Pictures attached: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Just because the brushes, bushes, solenoid, etc, appear ok does not mean the starter is ok (windings can be damaged, for example). Test the starter off the vehicle with a couple of jump leads and if it doesn't kick like a donkey on the floor, then throw it away and get a good one. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Agreed, you also don't show the armature, which may show signs of catching or not. BUT.... if you have tried and tried and tried to start an engine on it, you have given the starter a helluva hard time, and the insulation may well have broken down inside the windings and shorting where you can't see, did the inside of it smell burnt (like a sweet grilled honey on toast kinda smell)? If so it's scrap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 No funny smells etc, just a bit of dust in the end cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Well you can try electro-cleaning it all, reassemble and refit but it's your time, what's it worth? £20-30 for a known good second hand unit? Would have saved you hours potentially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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