Gazzar Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I've been toying with a few different ideas over the last few months as to getting more power, from ditching the 109 and getting a D2 V8, to getting a Land cruiser, etc. But funds are tight and if I want to build a workshop, then I'll not have the money for a Disco2. Workshop comes first - too old to be working on gravel in the rain. So, I've decided to address the problems with the 109. Number 1 problem: Not enough power when fully laden on a hill with a big trailer. Number 2 problem: a bit too loud Number 3 problem; vibration from engine is a pain in the ear. Background: It's a late series 3 109 pickup with a di200 engine, that has been cosmetically adjusted to look "series", side oil filler, cartridge oil filter, oil air filter, 2286 diesel intake manifold, painted duckegg blue. Looks good, runs great without the trailer, but on the long slow hills, with 3 1/2 tonne on the back, I'm down in 2nd gear, and that ISN'T fun. So - time to turbo, I think. Here is my shopping list = tdi300 manifold and turbo Oil feed pipes Oil cooler and pipes tdi200 oil filter and housing tdi200/300 air filter intercooler tdi300 intake manifold cyclone oil breather system piping between turbo and intercooler and intake etc exhaust Pipe between turbo and fuel IP Wright off road mat glencoyne engine mountings. What have I missed out? I've no PAS system, and the alternator is in the series position, so I think I'm ok for clearance. Any advice? anyone done this before? G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Why do you need Glencoyne engine mounts? You don't have to fit the intercooler. My 88 has been running without for a long time now, and it hasn't caused any problems at all. I keep meaning to fit one, but so far, not yet! Have your oil cooler pipes made to suit, I did on the series 2 and The 109, I really need to get new ones for Kettle. I'd take the filter housing to a decent hydraulic shop first to get the fittings sized, then take them back later when you're ready for the hoses. You can get away with the 200 intake manifold I think, little bit of fettling required thats all. You may not be able to use defender air intakes. I'm still struggling to come up with a decent solution that I like, and currently run a cone filter - K&N style. I bought a 110 300tdi exhaust and rerouted it a bit...depends how good your welding is! Now that I have PAS on The 109, I'd recommend it...... You'll be fine for clearance with the alternator in the 'series' position, I had it down there for a while before the PAS, with the 300 turbo on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Have a close look at my engine bay (on my blog). You'd be able to do the same but retain the SIII rad and use a Series oil cooler with the standard front panel if you ignore the intercooler. You might be able to squeeze a 300 intercooler infront of the rad, set to the left of the oil cooler. You're welcome to come up and have a good look at how I've done it and come along for a drive, if you wish. It'll give you an idea of the noise levels with the WOR matting, too. It might still be a bit high at 60mph+ for what you seem to want, though 3.54 diffs with overdrive will fix that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 You can peep in my engine bay pics as well for ideas on keeping the series rad panel, but mine is a defender 200, PS, series panel with td5 intercooler and tdi rad. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 Why do you need Glencoyne engine mounts? I've heard that they are very good at damping the vibration. The current genuine tdi mounts result in the steering wheel vibrating badly at tickover. I think it was Nick (Snagger) who tried them and found they fixed the problem. You don't have to fit the intercooler. My 88 has been running without for a long time now, and it hasn't caused any problems at all. I keep meaning to fit one, but so far, not yet! What difference does the charge cooler make? Do you have higher exhaust temperatures without? Does the turbo kick in at a different RPM? I'm after "grunt" in 4th, so knowing the impact of the "with/without" would help. Have your oil cooler pipes made to suit, I did on the series 2 and The 109, I really need to get new ones for Kettle. I'd take the filter housing to a decent hydraulic shop first to get the fittings sized, then take them back later when you're ready for the hoses. I may have the tdi200 pipes somewhere, so All I'd need is the cooler, I remember reading somewhere I can't use a series oil cooler (wrong flow method or something - not convinced), so an aftermarket should fit the bill. You can get away with the 200 intake manifold I think, little bit of fettling required thats all. I'm going to try for the 300, as I'm currently using the 2286 intake I'll be changing anyway. You may not be able to use defender air intakes. I'm still struggling to come up with a decent solution that I like, and currently run a cone filter - K&N style. I may have to go around the 4x4 breakers and see what fits. I bought a 110 300tdi exhaust and rerouted it a bit...depends how good your welding is! I've had a look at the parts diagram for a 110, but it's difficult to see, where does the back box go? It looks like it could foul the rear tank, but that may just be the picture. I saw your modification to the front downpipe - welding isn't a problem Now that I have PAS on The 109, I'd recommend it...... You'll be fine for clearance with the alternator in the 'series' position, I had it down there for a while before the PAS, with the 300 turbo on. I've not felt the need for PAS often, only when doing tight trailer work, even then it's just lazyness. Narrow, high pressure tyres help on that front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 Gremlin, Thanks for the link to the build - very helpful. One thing I couldn't quite make out, however, was the routing for the intercooler pipe. Would you mind describing it for me? I wonder should I get a second front panel to cut up to fit the intercooler (if necessary?)? The one on mine is in very good condition and I don't want to hack it up too much. Maybe I'll leave it run without charge cooling and see how I get on, plumbing the oil cooler only is MUCH easier. Will I need an electric fan? The di conversion runs VERY cool, I presume the turbo will change that (heating in the winter!). Thanks everyone, for the input. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Yep, it was me talking about the mounting rubbers. They're not special - they're just Bearmach 200Tdi mountings, but they seem to be of a better grade rubber that damps the vibration considerably more than the mountings I bought anywhere else, including Gen Parts, hence my recommendation of Glencoyne as a source. Running without an intercooler will slightly reduce performance at high boost (due to the adiabatic temperature rise not being reduced, resulting in a lower air density for the same boost pressure). It will probably also result in a bit more black smoke as the fuel boost will be throwing in the standard amount of extra fuel in response to the air pressure, but there will be a little less oxygen to burn it with because of that density loss. Turning down the fuel boost response a tad would cure that. The performance loss would be minimal with Series gear ratios, though you might notice it if you have 3.54 diffs. Unless you use the original fan, rad, intercooler and shroud together (next to impossible without chassis mods), the intercooler will not get any fan airflow and will only be effective at high speed from direct airflow, so the intercooler is not terribly effective in most retrofits except on the motorway. My electric fan has never cut in automatically except when climbing the Alps in the height of summer. You'll be OK over winter without one, but as I always maintain to those who advocate running without fans, you'd be a damned fool to leave it that way for the summer. A 14" electric fan from any of the mail order companies is all you need, and the X-fan switch and hose unit from X-Eng is a good way of acheiving automatic switching (far neater and more reliable than the capillary controllers that come with such fan kits), though I'd advise fitting a manual overide switch to activate the fan in case the thermostatic switch fails or to pre-empt temperature rises on long climbs. Mounted directly to the rad with the supplied plastic ties, you can expect rad damage. Fix them to the rad surround or front panel, not the rad itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 Emm, yes that does make sense, I'm fine with playing with the settings on the pump, and understand the density of oxygen/charge cooler thing. As I'm not after speed, just the ability to keep going, I'm thinking the intercooler may be optional. ejparrot, you just route the pipe from the turbo straight to the manifold, don't you? What kind of pipe did you use? All very interesting, and I'm of to the insurance broker now to see what the impact on insurance will be. Fun! G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Routing as follows, from the turbo, out straight to the intercooler on the left side, then out trough the right side, down and under the rad and back to the engine. I also have an electric fan, from some car. Comes on at 98 and off at 92, with a fitting like xeng in the bottom hose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 My understanding is that without an intercooler cooling my inlet air, there will be less O2 per charge, and ultimatly i'll be using more fuel. As our last trip to Wales returned us 37mpg, i'm not going to complain anyway. Kettle's pipework from turbo to inlet consists of a number of pieces of silicone hose an a 90degree stainless bend...something like 60mm diameter. I'll take some more photos for you when I get chance - I'm at the Braunston Historic Boat Show this weekend, so no time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted June 24, 2012 Author Share Posted June 24, 2012 I think I'll go "intercoolerless" for now - though it may all depend on the insurance. I've been in to the broker and they are looking into it, we'll see. The plus side is I've found my tdi oil filter and housing, and also the cooler pipes&the breather side plate. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 My understanding is that without an intercooler cooling my inlet air, there will be less O2 per charge, and ultimatly i'll be using more fuel. As our last trip to Wales returned us 37mpg, i'm not going to complain anyway. Kettle's pipework from turbo to inlet consists of a number of pieces of silicone hose an a 90degree stainless bend...something like 60mm diameter. I'll take some more photos for you when I get chance - I'm at the Braunston Historic Boat Show this weekend, so no time! The reduction in air density from not using an intercooler does not affect the fuel pump or injection quantities at all. Any unburnt fuel will result in black smoke, and this will only happen when the engine is labouring hard - while cruising, the fueling backs off and the engine runs cleanly and efficiently. In theory, you may find a tiny increase in fuel consumption, but this is only because the small reduction in performance whilst accelerating or pulling hard at maximum torque will result in slightly later gear changes, but that will be immeasurably small. The intercooler helps with performance, but it's the direct injection that makes the engine efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 Unlike the Insurance company who are still thinking about the idea. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I havent forgotten about the photos.....just mega busy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 85 Pounds! They want 85 pounds to insure it for 2 months with the turbo. No way - plan is postponed. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 What about for the whole year? Just had my renewal fore the lightweight -£85 for a year, and I'm only 35 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuck Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 That's a good price Bowie. Would you mind sharing who it's with please? Mick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Lancaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuck Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 Lancaster They were 600 for me with the di200. It's because I've lived abroad for the last 10 years -- foreign No Claims Discount doesn't count, even with the same company. Crazy - Last time I lived in the UK the 109 was £50. Anyway - the whole thing is postponed until late August, when the renewal is due and I can see what the annual cost is. Mind you, I suspect I'll not be doing quite so much trailer towing after August, so the need kind of disappears, so I might not do it anyway! Anyone got a series wright off road sound proofing kit for sale? G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Spend the time looking for bargins getting the bits together...Sodbury again soon, September I think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 Sodbury is too dangerous - at least with ebay I can keep track of what I blow/buy. Still........ G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexi Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Well they say NCD don't count with CC Policy. They told me that after I offered them 8yrs. I have the same with 2 other cars. I think they know what your record is do they not? Lancaster as well and 79quid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Yep, NCD was discounted as it was a classic policy I reckon I am just getting old! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Gaz, my exhaust: There's more photos at my photobucket page for The 109. Its all built from a 110 non cat 300 TDi system, except I think the loop around the flywheel housing crossmember which I think is disco over-axle hump. It works very well, and is easy to install too, unlike Kettle's, which is a right pig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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