Lots of questions

[sotal]

I've got a 1984 Series 3 SWB Diesel 2.25 which is a great vehicle I use it occasionally on the road (once a week or so) and then I take it off road once a month were it out performs must of the stuff there!!

Just got a couple of little problems/decisions.

The main problem with the vehicle is the brakes. I've replaced all the shoes and the drums are all OK. I've adjusted the brakes and got them all setup right but the braking performance is still awful. It passed it's MOT but only by 1% on the test. It will stop but I wouldn't like to do an emergency stop! Once we've been through a bit of water whilst off roading they fail altogether

I've done a good search on here and found the test for the servo. Pump it up until the pedal is hard then start the engine and it says the pedal should slowly drop to the correct position. Mine doesn't!! Mine just stays still.

So what do I do from there?? I've seen rebuild kits on ebay for about a tenner - but I can't find any instructions! Are they hard to do?? I've also read on here that I could use an early 110 servo which would be better. Is that right - is it worth it?

I've also seen that you can use a peugeot vacuum pump to really improve the brakes. Are they hard to fit? Do you need a different belt?

I've also been reading about disc brakes - which I thought would help with the off roading. I've read that the back ones are dead easy on mine as I've got the 24 spline half shafts, but the front ones are difficult due to the length of the half shafts?? I don't want to spend a fortune on zeus ones or similar - just really wanted to use second hand parts. Are there any particular ones which are easiest to fit. Would it be any use having rear disc brakes and front drums - (seems backwards to me and could cause problems??)

Ok that's brakes done!

Now Gearbox...

My gearbox is rather noisy and it doesn't like to go into 3rd from 4th, it just crunches - you have to wait for a few seconds then put it in. It's only annoying when going up a steep hill in 4th as when you come to drop down a gear you have to wait and lose all your speed.

I've got a series 2 gearbox lying about but I don't know the condition of it. Am I best to rebuild the series 3, find another series 3 box to put in or put the 2 box in?

Now suspension...

There's nothing wrong with my suspension, I've got standard leaf springs but the PO modified the chassis to extend the spring hangers, which lifts the vehicle by about 2 inches. We've also put 7.50x16's on which lift it a little more. I'm fairly happy with that setup but I've got a set of unused but 3 year old springs with the extended military shackles on them. I was going to fit them as I thought the newer springs would be better just from being newer and I was contemplating the shackles but would it raise it too much??

Thanks in advance

[minivin]

Brakes wise, I got a brand new servo off Ebay for £50 when I was rebuilding mine, although Tonk or Jon White should be able to tell you about the early 110 brake mod, pretty much involves removing your present brake peddle box (since yours is 1984 I take it it is dual brakes?) and fit the 110 assembly in it's place. Two wires for the brake switch, two brake lines, six bolts for mounting and job done IIRC.

Front discs are a pita, I used the TIConsole kit and it involved taking an angle grinder to the steering housings to give enough clearance for the calliper body to slide. However the brakes are great now.

Rear brakes, both JW and Tonk have done it on their SWB's so ask them

Gearbox wise, sounds like the synchro is knackered on third gear, as the SII has no synchro on third or forth you will pretty much suffer the same problem. I'd get another SIII gearbox and have it rebuilt, or if you can do the work yourself rebuild it yourself and then fit it in place of your present one.

[Tonk]

do a search on here ref brakes, rears are bolt ons, front are spendy or make your own up

early pedal box and servo from a 110 will bolt straight on and retain your master cylinder u have providing its the dual circuit type.

u dont state whether u have a petrol or diesel, if diesel have u checked your pump is working to power the servo? or a split pipe/air leak to the servo?

[minivin]

aiy he did mention 2.25D at the beginning, so worth checking the pump

[Tonk]

[sotal]

It is the dual circuit brake system.

I've checked the pipes and as far as I can tell there is no splits or leaks. Where is the pump? I thought it just used the pressure from the manifold and the bottle to hold vacuum??

[minivin]

Where is the pump? I thought it just used the pressure from the manifold and the bottle to hold vacuum??

good question not like a 2.5NAD that has it on the drivers side powered off the camshaft and oil pump drive, as naturally that is where the CAV fuel distributor is on a 2.25D. Am I right in guessing that you have the tap off then on the inlet manifold? all I can recommend is trace the pipping back from the Servo rewards, IIRC all the pipping tends to be something line 5/8" or something like that?

[Tonk]

take the pipe off the servo, start the engine and see if theres any sucking on the pipe, that will tell if u have servo probs or pump probs

[Lars L]

If it's a "normal" 2,25D there is no vacuum pump...

But, there is a butterfly in the induction manifold that has to be properly adjusted to be able to create vacuum when the accelerator is released. Don't know the procedure in detail, but it's in all the workshop manuals.

[sotal]

If it's a "normal" 2,25D there is no vacuum pump...

But, there is a butterfly in the induction manifold that has to be properly adjusted to be able to create vacuum when the accelerator is released. Don't know the procedure in detail, but it's in all the workshop manuals.

That's the system it's got. I've been looking into getting a peugeot vacuum pump from the scrappy as they're supposed to fit perfectly but at the moment it comes off the manifold and it does suck from there so that bit is working OK.

As far as I know it's as "normal" as possible! It's a 5 bearing if that makes any difference.

Has anyone tried the Servo rebuild kits??

[Tonk]

i did have a spare series3 pedal box and servo but i binned it last week, hmmm not much help really i know, i'd just source another unit or fit a 110 one.

[sotal]

I was just worried about sourcing another as the replacement might not work anyway!

Thanks for all the help guys (and possibly girls)

I'll have to upload some pics sometime

[bill van snorkle]

For the best possible brakes, without going to discs, a series 1 Disco double diaphram vacuum booster adapted to your pedal box is the ticket. Being an 84 model I assume you already have 11'' x 3'' front brakes and 10'' rears. I prefer to have 11''x 2 1/4''(all Lwb rears) rear brakes with 1'' wheel cylinders. Apparently there are efficient electric vacuum pumps available now.

Your 3rd 4th gear synchro problem appears to be broken leaf spring synchro clips. I have replaced these with the gearbox in situ on many occasions for customers, by removing the gearbox top and selector shafts, and with the aid of thin screwdrivers, bent bits of stiff wire and a telescopic magnet. It is a fiddly job and you need the patience of a saint, but it still beats removing, dismantling and refitting the whole gearbox.

Series 2, 2a gearboxes do have synchro on 3rd and 4th gear. It is 1st and 2nd that don't. Because of this they can be less troublesome than series 3 boxes, but can suffer from layshaft breakage if you use 2nd gear alot. Some series 2 boxes don't have a front oil seal, so you can't park them facing downhill with the engine switched off on anything steeper than 11degrees, otherwise oil leaks out of the box all over your clutch plate.

Generally with spring shackles. If the springs are in good condition and the standard shackles are near vertical, then a 2'' longer shackle will raise the truck only 1 ''. The more your standard shackles angle back from vertical the less effect longer shackles will have. Having longer spring hangers at the front with standard length shackles will also slightly reduce your castor angle which may cause the vehicle to wander a little on road at speed.

Bill.

[minivin]

Series 2, 2a gearboxes do have synchro on 3rd and 4th gear. It is 1st and 2nd that don't.

Oh yeah, duhhh, my bad

[RPR]

On the brakes, I think I am missing something in the discussion. I understood the original query was along the lines of, my brakes don't seem to be braking well enough - thus the 1% on the MoT test reference.

When I still had Series axles on my SIII, I had 109 drums on the front and a single line system with no Servo and while it wanted some push to lock up the brakes, lock up they would, even at considerable speed. So I'm not sure that the servo and vacuum are really at issue, other than making braking less hard on the right leg. If you don't have any leaks and the system is all bled out, it may be worth having another go at the cam adjusters. We all know what a pita they are, but when set up properly, a SWB with twin leading shoe fronts should stop really well.

"The main problem with the vehicle is the brakes. I've replaced all the shoes and the drums are all OK. I've adjusted the brakes and got them all setup right but the braking performance is still awful. It passed it's MOT but only by 1% on the test. It will stop but I wouldn't like to do an emergency stop! Once we've been through a bit of water whilst off roading they fail altogether"

If the drums really are okay (you aren't getting that sort of ABS feel ?) it sounds to me like the shoes still aren't adjusted properly or maybe you got some shiat in there first time offroading after setting them up.

Of course, it could just be that not being used to drum brakes, they just seem awful and are in fact working as God intended

[bill van snorkle]

On the brakes, I think I am missing something in the discussion. I understood the original query was along the lines of, my brakes don't seem to be braking well enough - thus the 1% on the MoT test reference.

When I still had Series axles on my SIII, I had 109 drums on the front and a single line system with no Servo and while it wanted some push to lock up the brakes, lock up they would, even at considerable speed. So I'm not sure that the servo and vacuum are really at issue, other than making braking less hard on the right leg. If you don't have any leaks and the system is all bled out, it may be worth having another go at the cam adjusters. We all know what a pita they are, but when set up properly, a SWB with twin leading shoe fronts should stop really well.

"The main problem with the vehicle is the brakes. I've replaced all the shoes and the drums are all OK. I've adjusted the brakes and got them all setup right but the braking performance is still awful. It passed it's MOT but only by 1% on the test. It will stop but I wouldn't like to do an emergency stop! Once we've been through a bit of water whilst off roading they fail altogether"

If the drums really are okay (you aren't getting that sort of ABS feel ?) it sounds to me like the shoes still aren't adjusted properly or maybe you got some shiat in there first time offroading after setting them up.

Of course, it could just be that not being used to drum brakes, they just seem awful and are in fact working as God intended

This is a ''Long Shot'' but I have seen it happen before on vehicles that have been stripped down and rebuilt, where the left and right side backing plates have been fitted to the wrong side. You end up with a twin trailing shoe system where the brakes work quite well in reverse but offer bugger all retardation from forward motion.

Bill.

[sotal]

Thanks for the tips,

Bill - nice idea but they are the right way round. Brakes in reverse are very worrying! As we rebuilt them we did one wheel at the time, so it was only off one end at a time, no chance to mix them up.

RPR - Don't get me wrong the brakes do work. If I'm on level ground I can bring it to a stop with just the brakes alone, I can lock the wheels up on gravel but not on tarmac. If I'm going down a steep hill on the road I have to use engine braking as well.

My Uncle has a series 2A LWB which has had a servo and vacuum pump fitted and that stops as well as my car! Even after going through water whilst off roading.

The brakes are all adjusted correctly. If I adjust them up at all then they bind on. So they are all 1 click back off from that - the haynes manual said to take them 2 clicks back but they didn't work as well then. When I do brake as hard as I can it brakes in a straight line, and there is no feel of ABS.

I've identified that the servo isn't working so that seems the best place to start!

However you a probably right that they are working as well as a 2A without servo should work but having been in others with drums all round and seen how much better they can be - I've got to sort them!

[FridgeFreezer]

For the suspension I'd have to say "FIT PARABOLICS!" don't bother putting stock springs on.

Seriously, they are the single best mod you can do to a Series (closely followed by a V8 ) and are cheap enough these days (although it seems you do get what you pay for with them), and procomp shocks / deflex bushes.

[sotal]

Not convinced with Parabolics, a friend has them fitted. Rocky Mountain ones which I think are quite good.

They seem fine when the landrover is empty (but nothing special) but get a bit of weight in and they are carp. I was more impressed with a new set of standard springs

[bill van snorkle]

Not convinced with Parabolics, a friend has them fitted. Rocky Mountain ones which I think are quite good.

They seem fine when the landrover is empty (but nothing special) but get a bit of weight in and they are carp. I was more impressed with a new set of standard springs

Yeah we fit Rocky Mountain Parabolics and Procomp shocks to customers vehicles on request, and to be honest, I dont know why people rave about them. I even use them on the rear myself, but not without a supplementary means of locating the axle. My main interest is crosscountry mobility and IMO Parabolics don't locate the axle adequately to limit axle tramp to give decent performance. The only real advantage I see with them is an improvement in ground clearance under the springs.

Bill.

[Tonk]

depends wot u actually use the lr for really, heavy load carrying then multi leaf probably stand upto the weight better. parabolics will way out perform standard springs for articulation

[FridgeFreezer]

What exactly is wrong with them then? I lugged all sorts of cr*p with the 109 on paras (2-leaf fronts, 3+1-leaf rears) including heavy towing and it was fine. Articulated well off-road and was pretty good at power-sliding too

Mind you those were TIC's which aparrently are/were about the best you can get.

[sotal]

OK so going back to the brakes....

I had a chat with a local mechanic who calls himself a landrover specialist (not sure on that but..) he thought it would be the servo and luckily had a similar one on his parts shelf wich he sold me for £20.

The servo was a fair bit bigger in diameter but the studs were all in the same place so I wipped of the old one trimmed a little bit off the wing and fitted the new one.

The brakes are now better but still not perfect, at thirty five I did an emergency stop and we stopped and everything fell on the floor! It did however take a lot of pressure. Likewise I can now slow down and stop on downhill descents although it takes a hell of a lot of right leg work!!

So it was better but still not perfect. I've just been having a play with it so I decided to take the vacuum pipes off with it running and see how much vacuum there was - there is a little bit on idle not a hugh amount but I'm not sure what to expect. It isn't strong enough to suck the pipe on to my finger. If I rev it up the vacuum decreases even more.

I then took all the pipe off and went for a drive - the brakes are just as good as they are with the pipes attached!!

I've had a look through the haynes manual but it only breifly mentions the butterfly valve and doesn't tell you what to do with it!

Any ideas on how to adjust it??

[simonb]

You need to adjust it so that with the throttle closed at idle, the butterfly is almost but not quite shut. If you close it too much the engine will either not start again or will smoke. To be honest it was never a brilliant system and with wear in the throttle linkage its difficult to get it set up properly - there will either be no vacuum or you end up strangling the engine.

My 88" hasn't got a servo and the brakes work well enough to leave rubber on the road for an emergency stop. You have to remember that the brakes are from a different era and are drums all round so its not going to be the same as a modern car and so you need to drive accordingly. You could take it to a MOT garage and get them to test brake efficency. If its good enough to pass a MOT with a decent margin then thats good enough. You may be better off throwing away the butterfly altogether and getting a vacuum pump of an early Peugeot 205, 306, Citroen ZX and making up a bracket to fit that and running it off the fan belt....

[sotal]

It passed it's MOT when they were worse, now I've replaced the servo they are better.

I know they're older etc and I can't expect them to work better than my car, but I have driven other series 3's and they are better! The main other one I have driven has got the peugeot pump - so I'll give that a try.

I took the rod off the butterfly last night so I could move them independantly. The only time I get any real vacuum is when it is very nearly closed but then it pours smoke out of the exhaust.

I'm now on the look out for a pump from a peugeot!!