aniesigh Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Hi all, I'm in the process of fitting a hydraulic pump/clutch to a mates defender challenge truck. I need to mount a sprocket / pulley to the bottom pulley. How have people achieved this? I have a pair of taper lock duplex sprockets and also a pair of belt pulleys (came with my hydro setup I bought for my own truck but I'm lending them to my mate so we can get it done for the de-cider trophy!) With the setup I bought came a 'boss' with a shaft with a keyway cut in it. I believe this bolts on to a 300tdi crank pulley if I remember correctly. I believe it was custom made. If it was an 'off the shelf' item I would use it for my mates install and get him to replace it for when I come to do mine. Question is... Is something similar available off the shelf? I can't find anything similar on the net but knowing the proper terms for these things helps! What's people's opinions on chain vs belt? I have pulleys and sprockets so either is possible . It's going to be a single 30cc pump. My setup when I get round to it will be 2 pumps, with a prv between them set quite low so high flow at low pressure. In an ideal world we'd both run pumps driven direct from crank with a mini prop but space doesn't allow! Will update with a pic of the bits I've got when I have better signal as I'm at my unit with no 3G! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aniesigh Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Oh it's a v8 serp engine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Run it off a prop in front of the engine. Much better. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 If you were to use a chain, you'd need a fully-enclosed oil-bath [or you'd need to re-oil the chain every few hundred miles!] Does the front pulley include a vibration-damper? If it does, be really careful what you attach to it - not only can you disrupt the thing's ability-to-balance the engine [resulting in potentially increased vibration and wear of engine components] but transmitting more-than-designed torque through the bonded-rubber bit can cause it to de-bond rather quickly. They always disintegrate at high-revs and it's amazing how much damage they do in the process. Best place for any serious power-takeoff is the PTO on the back of the transfer-box. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aniesigh Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 No room to run it in front of the engine I'm afraid G (no realistic possibility to make room either) It came from a working truck with the chain setup and others have done it I believe so no reason it shouldn't work it's just coming up with best way to make it fit. Crank pulley isn't dampened and it's a competition only truck, I'd be very impressed if it did 200 miles in a year, chain would be lubed before and after every event. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aniesigh Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Fair enough, Barrie runs a chain. Doesn't have an oil bath, don't worry about that. Saley tried one on his yellow truck and then went back to the prop shaft way. I've only ever run crank driven, and have no complaints or intention of changing to chain even though space would be better. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Strangely chains are run without oil baths all the time...... They are these strange contraptions with two wheels.... Fit an o-ring chain with a tensioner and never worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Barry went from PTO shaft to chain, which has worked well for him, but that's a diesel not a V8. If that chain comes off at full rpm it will be bad, so I have to say shaft or belt on a petrol engine. I'm with Zim on the shaft install. Mines been on since 2007. It's what everyone uses on plant who doesn't have a spare hole in the timing cover. In my case I modded the front cross-member to fit the pump. Or, to be precise, I cut the middle out completely and made a hoop around the pump. But I see that's a lot of work. I have a drawing for a V pulley adapter boss in the cad section, but maybe the serp is a totally different boss? Looks the same on your photo though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aniesigh Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 I'm thinking for when I come to do my own install of maybe using a 90 degree gearbox from a topper run by a shaft then the pumps in front of the engine like that, that way it's shaft driven but not sticking 12" out the front of my truck. If I go down that route that'll leave the boss I've got redundant so can use It for fitting my mates setup. The bolt holes are different to a tdi, the boss I've got will fit a tdi pulley but I reckon I can do something with it Cheers all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I save the length by skipping the prop shaft part. The crank boss has a layrub coupling bolted to it, and the layrub to a another boss/drive-plate on the end of a bought-in dog clutch. The pump is already made to fit into the dogbox. The problem is I can't 'paste' into here, so the only place I can think to see it is difflock.com in the 4x4 section under teamidris, or type "teamidris hydraulic pump" into google images. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I'd add a cover to stop branches getting caught, or it coming off. I dont think a proper setup will come off easily, as mentioned with the motorbike comparison, just peace of mind. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aniesigh Posted August 15, 2014 Author Share Posted August 15, 2014 Think we'll go with belt but built so that if it gives problems the pulleys can be swapped for sprockets (they're both just taper locks so will just swap over) If a belt snaps it's a 2 minute job to chuck another on, if a chain let's go god only knows what else if will take out! A decent guard etc to keep the carp out and job should be a good'un I'll make my setup direct of the crank somehow so that means I can use the boss I've gt for my mates setup, just need to make an adapter to fit it to the v8 crank pulley! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aniesigh Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 Ok got that hub mounted in the crank pulley quite easily in the end so we're making progress with this now! Just preparing to plumb it all in, should filter and cooler both be in return line from valve block to tank? When it comes to using it, am I right in thinking that basically if the fluid starts to get too hot it will struggle to make full pressure? And while the fluid is not too hot, as the load on the winch increases, the pressure will build up to the pressure that the prv is set at? Any other hints/tips/tricks etc we should know about? Hydraulic newbie Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_grieve Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 With any open circuit hydraulic system the constant flow from the pump will divert through the relief valve whatever fluid is not being used for the load when the spool is moved from the open condition. This generates heat, you're better to open the spool fully when using the winch instead of 'feathering' the control unless you have a good size of tank. This gets more work out of the system for the heat input. I'd suggest tank size and cooling is crucial to effective operation and decent filters in case something goes wrong. You'll lose almost a third of your input power to heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aniesigh Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 Yeah I'm aware of how feathering it will heat the fluid more, although being able to feather it is one of the bonuses of going hydraulic so it probably will get used like that until/unless the fluid starts getting too warm. What is a normal working temperature range for the oil? What's the difference between grade 32 & 48? What should we be running? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_grieve Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Any hydraulic system wants to be as cool and stable as it can be but real life dictates it'll get hotter than it's supposed to. If you calculated the right size of cooler and tank to build and sell your hydraulic winch pack commercially you'd be building a 110 to fit it all in so duty cycle and lifespan come into it. In real life if you can keep your fluid below 100ºC you'd be doing well with a 20l tank and maybe a small cooler on the return line if you're getting a good bit of use out your winch. You'll probably experience spikes double that and run it till it smells. What have you got for temp and pressure gauges? 30cc isn't a big pump, maybe a bigger pump turning slower might produce less heat for the application? 32 or 48? Hmmm, 32's like a 10 weight motor oil and 48's like a 20 weight if that helps you decide? The thicker the oil the more heat it makes at start up and less mechanical efficiency but better volumetric efficiency as it gets hotter. vice versa for thinner. Team Idris (Steve) takes a bit to do with hydraulic cooling packs as part of his work I think? Maybe he can offer some better advice with oil types, cooling and using a hydraulic winch in challenge events from practical experience rather than my fleet recovery and engineering training type experience. I'd probably try both types and watch the temperatures under similar loads and go for the cooler one. It really is application specific. Edit: I think you mean ISO 46, not 48? I should have said you get high performance synthetic oils nowadays which might be better than regular mineral stuff we chuck in machines. I don't have an application chart or anything for it but modern harvesters and suchlike are probably running it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aniesigh Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 Thanks, Yeah sorry I meant 46 not 48, As for gauge, it's just going to be a temp gauge with the probe either in the tank or the return line, whichever is easier to fit although I guess in the tank would give a truer idea of what the system on a whole is doing as in the return line it's going to be warmer than the rest. Pressure gauge will be Tee'd off the output from the pump and fitted on the cage somewhere that it can be seen from inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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