6cyl SWB?

[Bigj66]

4 minutes ago, lo-fi said:

It'll be longer than the series box, for sure! As Bowie says, the serp has a short nose pump, so a pusher fan in front of the rad will probably see you right. My setup put the engine so far forward I didn't need to mod the footwells, but there's not a lot of clearance for the manifolds: about an inch or so. Enough, but tight. 

Enough to get a socket on the manifold nuts?

[Bowie69]

To be honest, an RRC is as tight as that for the rearmost manifold nuts/bolts on the drivers side.

 

[lo-fi]

Yep, it's absolutely workable. I had to shift the engine off axis slightly so the crank nose doesn't sit in line with the hole in the front crossmember, though. I also mounted it a few inches higher to prevent front axle clearance issues despite running a remote filter. 

[Bigj66]

Cheers, these sound like good options if I end up having to scrap the Rangy although I’d prefer not to as they are a sought after classic in their own right as are the Series vehicles. If I had to though then recycling it into another Landrover would take some of the sting out of it. Need to investigate the extent of the rot further and speak to some specialist repair companies before making a final decision.

Cheers for the input.

[lo-fi]

Someone will pay good money for the rangey as it is, I'm sure  Though if you're going to daily drive whatever comes out the other side, the rangey has got to be the better choice? 

My serp V8 came from a rotten disco and there's plenty of them about very cheap if you do decide to convert, though. 

[Bigj66]

26 minutes ago, lo-fi said:

Someone will pay good money for the rangey as it is, I'm sure  Though if you're going to daily drive whatever comes out the other side, the rangey has got to be the better choice? 

My serp V8 came from a rotten disco and there's plenty of them about very cheap if you do decide to convert, though. 

It’s a valid point and I also need to weigh up my MOT exemption and vehicle registration requirements if I change too many parts.

[Bowie69]

Was gonna say, even a rotten-ish soft-dash goes for very good money at the moment, if you sell it and buy a rotten Disco, you get the LT230 thrown in as well as saving a load of money.

MOT exemption issues will only come in if you start swapping the axles in your case, as you will be keeping the original unmodified chassis, suspension, steering..... The engine and gearbox alone is not enough to make you lose it.

You need 8 points, 5 for chassis, 2 for axles, 2 for suspension, so you could even fit PAS and be OK.

 

[Bigj66]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’ve seen a lot worse than I have in front of me on the Rangy and it may well be that a specialist restorer would take a different and more positive view than mine. As it stands at the moment it will need rear floor, rear arches inner and outer, rear side panels, inner and outer sills, rear seat base but maybe a good second hand one would do, front inner wings and possibly footwell repairs based on the wet carpets, rear tailgate, roof as it looks like someone has been dancing on it in stilettos 🤬and some chassis repairs.

Again, all doable but at a price - and then double it. And all this before a respray or any mechanical work.

If I do decide to upgrade the S3 then at least I would have a good known engine, box and diffs to fit and wouldn’t have to put up with someone else’s bodged work or cut wiring looms. It seems to be the items of trim etc, especially those unique to the Softdash that are hard to come by which are in demand and fetch good money so I’m sure that these, and the remains of the body, suspension and axles would be of interest to someone else looking for a good donor for their own project.

As you can tell, I don’t rush into things so will take the time to listen to advice and consider the best option.

What is the benefit of the L230?

[Bowie69]

19 minutes ago, Bigj66 said:

What is the benefit of the L230?

2WD kit availability! And more ratios, Borg Warner box is only 1.2.

[Bigj66]

22 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

2WD kit availability! And more ratios, Borg Warner box is only 1.2.

Could I sell the BW and fit a 230 to the same box?

[Bowie69]

Yep no problem, many people do this when going to larger tyres - including me.

[FridgeFreezer]

What they said - don't break a half decent working RRC. At worst maybe invest in a MIG welder and learn to weld if you can't already, it's cheaper than the labour would be to get someone else to do it and then you'll own a very useful tool!

Also, crusty D2's and P38's are cheap and give you a more modern lump with a shorter nose and cross-bolted mains. Also, more cubes if you get the 4.6! Only wrinkle is the more complex EFI but that's what Megasquirt is for

LT230 gives you choice of high ratios from 1:1 to 1.6:1, they're designed to drive 3.54 diffs so low ratio is properly low, they're pretty damn bulletproof and simple, and you can convert them to 2WD if you desire - but it's NOT required in a Series conversion, just a nice-to-have.

V8 + whatever + LT230 into a Series is doable, easy in a 109 (see my 109 build thread for pics of my conversion + LT230 2WD kit), not so easy in an 88, but unlikely to be much worse than squeezing the six in. I can wave a tape measure under mine if needed.

[Bigj66]

I am out in the garage with my tape and I get 1.63m from the back of the transmission brake drum/prop flange to the nose of the SERP water pump. Is the LT230 smaller than the BW transfer box as I would need to try and reduce the overall length if I kept the auto box?

Could maybe grab an inch off the rear prop and same off the rad panel.

[lo-fi]

I don't know about the BW box, but the 230 is quite a big lump. My mate had an 88 with an LT77 and 230 behind a 200tdi converted by a previous owner. Zero clearance behind the handbrake drum to the point where servicing it was a very tricky box out job. Also a stupidly short rear prop that ate many UJ's and a diff pinion bearing. I've no doubt it can be done better, and I think the V8 is a little shorter. Depends how the auto box compares to the 77, but my gut feeling is its as long if not longer. 

[Bigj66]

Cheers, I can see that the handbrake drum is wider than on the series box and wondered if the series transfer box will bolt to the back of the auto box by any chance? Or can be adapted to do so?

[lo-fi]

Yeah, the whole thing is more chunky than the series transfer. There's this:

https://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/the-series-vehicle/series-5-speed-kits.html

But even that adds four inches, and I'm not 100% you can use it with the auto. They'd be able to tell you. A disk hand brake conversion for the 230 can get you out of a lot of trouble and will be cheaper. 

Wish I had some pics of my mates 88. It was one of those worst bodge-job lash-ups I've ever seen, but did go to show how you're limited for room in an 88. 

[Bigj66]

There’s also this on the Ashcroft website in the Defender V8 auto conversion section:

Kit to Convert the V8 Defender to Automatic Transmission 

For this conversion we use the 4HP22 autobox. The lengths of the auto and the manual box are the same so the existing transfer case can go straight on the auto with no modifications.

When they refer to the manual box is that the R380 they’re talking about?

If so then in the Series section they say this:

2) The other option is to fit the LT77 or R 380 and then fit the series transfer case onto the back of it with this kit. This way you retain the stock "Series" transfer case with selectable 2/4WD. You can also fit freewheeling hubs so you are not wasting fuel spinning the prop, diff Etc. This ends up a shorter transmission and allows you to keep the stock front grill even on a 88".

In theory then if the R380 and 4HP22 boxes are the same length then it should be possible using the conversion kit to fit the Series transfer box to the back of the auto?

Or have I read that wrong? Will call Ashcrofts tomorrow as they haven’t replied to my email yet.

[FridgeFreezer]

R380 & LT77 work out to the same length -  the R380 is ~30mm longer but its bellhousing is the same amount shorter to compensate.

[Bigj66]

So if the R380 and the auto box share the same LT230 transfer box and the Series transfer box will bolt to the R380 with a kit, then it stands to reason that the series transfer box will also bolt to the auto and the overall length of each will remain the same.

Question is whether a LT230 is the same length as a Series TB or is the series one smaller?

[Bowie69]

Series is shorter, but also has extension piece out the front.

[Bigj66]

12 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Series is shorter, but also has extension piece out the front.

Is that the front output shaft housing you’re referring to?

[Bowie69]

Yes.

[lo-fi]

You need a much longer front prop to reach the LT230, as the extension piece carrying the front output is much shorter, despite it being quite a bit longer between the main box and the rear output flange. This causes problems with the front prop fouling the crossmember under the bellhousing, usually solved by taking a chunk out and putting a plate in to 'scallop' it to clear the prop. Ugly but effective. 

To answer your question about the conversion kit and the auto box: It depends. Yes, it should bolt up in theory following that logic, but... The input gear on the series box is supported by the output bearing of the main box - the main box obviously having been built with this on mind. The LT230 (and I'm sure the same must be true for the BW) has a fully supported input gear riding on bearings inside the transfer box. The main box simply has a splined shaft which fits into the input gear and sees none of the radial or axial load imposed by the transfer input gear. Ashcroft have clearly decided that the LT77 and R380 are strong enough to cope with the load on the output bearing with whatever arrangements they have in the series adaptor. Whether the same is true for the auto box, I don't know. I'd email in a question to Ashcroft and see what they say before making any plans. 

[Bowie69]

One further note BTW, I am really enjoying this thread, even with the feint whiff of vapour surrounding it, I do hope it all comes to fruition

[Bigj66]

Yes, I also like a good techy discussion 👍

And on that subject, if inches will make the difference then it could be possible to move the rear axle back to the centre of the arch and gain 1-2” that way for the rear prop angle. I think you can use offset spring axle plates.