6cyl SWB?

[Bowie69]

I like that sort of work too, when someone else is buying all the panels!

 

 

[Gazzar]

Yes, that helps, if the customer buys good stuff!

[Bigj66]

I have had a look around at alternative engines and boxes but the reality is that a good condition V8 serpentine engine, complete with intact wiring loom simply is not available at the moment. ZF boxes are out there but again, their condition is unknown and are often missing parts that will be needed to complete the conversion. In the end it would cost me more to try and source another engine, box, diffs, ECU and loom from a donor vehicle than what I could sell the vehicle for in its current state, even to the likes of Kingsley or another specialist restoration company. Going the P38 or D2 engine/box route is too problematic for reasons already discussed.

To get the work done properly on the RRC, including the engine, chassis and drivetrain reconditioning, would incur bills knocking on the door of at least £15k for quality results that would give the vehicle another 20+ year lease of life which is what that level of investment should be expected to return. I could probably sell as is for £2-3k but would spend at least that again on buying a decent reconditioned V8 engine alone if not more, so where is the sense in that?

The biggest mistake we make with these projects, and I know because I’ve done it, is to let the heart rule the head and end up ploughing tons of money into something that you will never, at least, get your money back on. For a company to buy it to restore and sell on, they will want to give very little for it in the first place as ultimately, they need to make a profit so again it doesn’t make any sense for me to go down that route. Having it sat on the drive unused doesn’t seem the sensible way forward either.

[Snagger]

Sounds like you already have your mind made up, in which case take the minimum parts you need and sell the rest on to on of those companies - their returns would probably justify them sourcing replacement engines and transmissions as they'd be refurbishing them anyway, and at worst they could use them as donors to keep numerous other RRCs around rather than it being scrapped.

You cold ask if they'd swap a known good engine and transmission for your complete vehicle.

[Bigj66]

My mind isn’t made up but you only need to read the thread above this one to see what I’m talking about regarding costs.

I’ll look at the Rangy again at the weekend with fresh eyes. If I can’t use the auto box in the Series then I’ll probably look at an alternative V8 and sell the Rangy.

[Soren Frimodt]

Don't listen to the Rivet Counters Joe  Take that drivetrain you know and trust and stuff it into the 88" and don't look back.. IMO there's no more reason to be worrying about saving RRC's now than back when there was plenty of them. Back then we all new it would end eventually anyways so the deed was no less innocent. The general movement towards originality and "numbers matching" destroys creativity and all the good tech threads on here and everywhere else!..

[Bigj66]

Cheers Soren, I appreciate all contributions to the thread as it helps with the discussion and may benefit others in the future. I really do need to recheck my measurements for the Series though before I decide which way to go👍

[Bigj66]

Looks like it should all fit with some alterations here and there but will be tight. The Rangy has a driveshaft style front propshaft, which might help with clearance but it depends on the final engine position I suppose. I did look again at using the axles with standard rims but that would mean putting it on a Q plate so a no no unfortunately.

[Bigj66]

Is the need to modify the bulkhead just to get access to the rearmost exhaust manifold bolts/plugs or are there other reasons? 

[Bigj66]

My transfer lever just shifts from high to low with no manual diff lock. The Rangy also has traction control fitted so does that mean I have no diff lock at all or that it is built into the TB and works automatically?

[Soren Frimodt]

2 hours ago, Bigj66 said:

Is the need to modify the bulkhead just to get access to the rearmost exhaust manifold bolts/plugs or are there other reasons? 

No there are no other reasons, with the dent I told you I made in the bulkhead the engine can be fitted. But of your're using the RRC gearboxes you'll end up a bit further forward anyways. But then you'd have to modify the bulkhead anyways just to stuff that huge trans in there

1 minute ago, Bigj66 said:

My transfer lever just shifts from high to low with no manual diff lock. The Rangy also has traction control fitted so does that mean I have no diff lock at all or that it is built into the TB?

It has a viscous coupling dealing with the 4x4

[Bigj66]

1 hour ago, Soren Frimodt said:

No there are no other reasons, with the dent I told you I made in the bulkhead the engine can be fitted. But of your're using the RRC gearboxes you'll end up a bit further forward anyways. But then you'd have to modify the bulkhead anyways just to stuff that huge trans in there

I was hoping the bellhousing would fit without any chopping of the floor, tunnel or bulkhead. Is that a definite that the top of the tunnel aperture in the bulkhead will need modifying? If so then that would probably be a showstopper for the auto then 🙁. Is it the same for the V8 manual box bellhousings, LT77 & R380?

[Soren Frimodt]

Yeah, problem is that the V8 has a 10.5" clutch as opposed to only a 9,5" on the Series. So all V8 bellhousings are quite a lot bigger than the Series.

 

[Bigj66]

6 hours ago, Soren Frimodt said:

Yeah, problem is that the V8 has a 10.5" clutch as opposed to only a 9,5" on the Series. So all V8 bellhousings are quite a lot bigger than the Series.

 

Oh 😐 I hadn’t noticed that being mentioned when I’ve been reading the threads on the subject. Must pay more attention in future 🧐

[Bowie69]

My impression is the autos have a slightly smaller bellhoising, but may be wrong on that, tape measure and crayons required!

[Bigj66]

2 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

My impression is the autos have a slightly smaller bellhoising, but may be wrong on that, tape measure and crayons required!

Difficult to judge from photos so I guess I’ll find out when I try it.

[Bigj66]

I’m thinking about the steering arrangements I’d like to have and I’m leaning towards a power steering setup as I have the pump already on the engine.

I also have the Rangy steering box but believe the P38 box makes for a simpler conversion?

It seems to be the way most folk go these days but I’m unsure whether the box sits inside or outside the chassis rail as I’m sure I’ve seen it done both ways so which is best?

[Bowie69]

P38 outside, 4 bolt inside.

[Bigj66]

Is it correct that an early defender steering column will still allow the use of the series steering wheel?

[Bowie69]

Yes, there's threads on here about conversions, do a search.

[Bigj66]

I’ve done quite a few searches over the last few weeks but can’t find anything conclusive. Some threads seem to fizzle out before being updated with the outcome of the work (pet hate) whilst others are a bit vague and lack the engineering detail.

It seems the easiest route is to mate the outboard mounted P38 steering box to a Defender steering column but in doing so you lose the ability to retain the standard Series steering wheel which I would like to keep. Steve Parker do one such conversion package. I saw a comment in a thread about using an early Defender steering column to overcome this but again there were no further details hence my original question. Will a Series steering wheel fit to an early Defender steering column? If so how early do I need to go to get the right splined shaft? Is it from a 90/110 model year as opposed to a later Defender model?

The other option I believe is to keep the standard Series column but weld the end of the Defender shaft to it and then do the same for the outer tube to provide a means for it to sit the inner shaft in a lower bearing and bolt to the bulkhead. I also saw a reply to a YT clip that mentioned VW steering shafts have the same dimensions and spline arrangement as a Series shaft but no further information on that either so if anyone does have any details, it would be appreciated.

Best I can find at the moment is this link.

 

[Gazzar]

The route I had in mind when I was looking at this was to use the series steering box as a pillow bearing holder, cut it away, and splice a defender end on to a shaft in place of the worn.

Welding a defender end to a series shaft will cause wails and cries, but if you are working to UK rules I think you need to get it done by a coded welder, and assessed by an automotive engineer.

Once you've the defender end, the rest is okay, run the link shaft along the chassis rail to the box.

Holding the PAS  box to the chassis has a couple of options, either weld crush tubes to the chassis, risking IVA implications, or use the relay hole as the location for a bracket for the p38a box, which is a good option.

I'm going to use the Hystee system, I'm tight on modification points on my CSW plan, and has a galv chassis, so that system makes sense for me.

 

G.

[FridgeFreezer]

I used a D2 PAS box (just to be different again! They're supposedly stronger than D1/RRC but the mount is different), a standard early Defender column and an early "thin" Defender wheel as it's close enough to the Series sort of look. I'm pretty sure the Series wheel WON'T fit on it or I would have just bolted it on. I may have the bits kicking around to check.

The early Defender ones are I think the most commonly used wheel-end spline, will accept most Defender/D1/RRC wheels although I know there was a period when LR changed to a different spline and (possibly) then went back again. Probably 300TDi or TD5 era, there was a long and tediously detailed thread about it on here, probably now in the tech archive.

The D2 box has a different input spline to everything else, I'm guessing the P38 one may well do too, which can lead to having to cobble your own steering shaft together. I think the arm is different too, and P38 rod ends are different so you're potentially into making new steering bars.

Welding the shaft up shouldn't be a major terror as it's a solid lump that takes twisting force, plenty of meat to weld and easily sleeved for belt & braces.

The only MOT rules last time I looked are that there should be no badly-done repairs, be they welded or otherwise. My old steering bars were cut & shut by the welding stig using solid inserts, welded (root & cap) round the join as well as drilled & puddle-welded then finished on the lathe so you never saw the join. Mind, they were Volvo so about 3x stronger than LR ones to start with.

An alternative is lots of cars have electric assisted steering columns these days, might be an easier thing to make bolt-on. There's a kit in one of the comics for £££ but I can't imagine it's much more than parts from the scrappy adjusted to fit.

[Bigj66]

Cheers, that’s useful to know and it seems that either way there’s some fabrication to be done to the steering shaft. Taking the worm drive off the standard shaft and welding the P38 end to it and the same to the column as in that video might be the best way forward then as it’s work I can give to a proper engineering company to make sure the welding is done right and then the P38 parts should mate up to it. I thought the P38 steering arm was a straight fit to the Series rods? Need to check that further to be sure or see if the arm can be swapped for another one.

[FridgeFreezer]

I've been through every track rod end in the history of the universe as Volvo 303's are unobtainium... I'll have to dig out my collection as I have Defender, P38, all sorts... I'm fairly sure P38 are a different taper as it was BMW/Lemforder parts bin. Also if memory serves P38 and/or D2 bars have the TRE swaged into one end and a twin-threaded adapter in the other.