Eightpot Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 I would think Bosch might be happy to give some input if it highlights possible fakes - or perhaps ask the ebay seller why his differ from the one shipped by Bosch.. I'll dig a couple of injectors out at work today and pull the nozzles for comparison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Just pulled the nozzle from a 300tdi - looking very much like your ebay nozzle monkie, spay holes in the same position which I think is safe to assume gives the different spray angle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Do you know what the Bosch part number is on that 300tdi nozzle you have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Hang on a min - my eyes are struggling a bit with these tiny holes - on closer inspection the holes are at different angles - Just above halfway, halfway, below halfway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Are those all the same nozzle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Yes same nozzle. Very feint part number etched - dsla145p366 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 I have just looked at my Bosch 200Tdi nozzles. They have 5 holes each and they are not all in the same place. The seem to be almost in a spiral round the tip of the nozzle. I will try to get some pictures side by side that show the holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Well I've just pulled an injector from a 200tdi and put it next to the 300tdi nozzle. I can't discern any difference in hole location and cant see any physical difference - measured with a micrometer and both precisely the same. I guess any difference in angle of the hole probably isn't visible to the naked eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Here are the two nozzle types for the 200tdi side by side. The Eurocar parts supplied on is on the left. The holes look slightly bigger to me on the Eurocar parts nozzle. It's so hard to tell at this scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 I guess observing the spray pattern is key, would be interesting to compare with a 300tdi nozzle. Now I'm think about pulling the internals out and rigging an injector up to an airline and blowing thinners through.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 I don't think this will work 🤣 just had to catch myself on there - I should probably get back to work before I do something silly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Post a photo of what the holes in the nozzle look like once you've recovered them from the wall on the otherside of your workshop 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HampshireHog Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Monkie , I know diesel Bob’s a busy man but maybe he could shed some light on the new versus old stock seeing as he deals with these day in day out . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, HampshireHog said: Monkie , I know diesel Bob’s a busy man but maybe he could shed some light on the new versus old stock seeing as he deals with these day in day out . Is he a member of this forum? I get what you are saying and I wouldn't knock his experience for a moment, however I am more interested in what Bosch themselves have to say on any apparent differences. To be honest I dounbt they can/will comment on anything that is not supplied through their approved distributor (I wouldn't get drawn into such conversion if I were them) but you have to ask... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 It may well be that nobody at Bosch has much of an idea now as it's a bit of a legacy part - the designer and product team could well be retired now - but if you can figure out which team 'owns' the product and can navigate there through various switchboards you might get lucky. I'd have thought some of the old boys in bosch service centres and diesel refurb guys like diesel bob may well have a better idea, but would prob have to ring round a bit till you struck the right guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 One would hope that a company such as Bosch would document and create a full audit trail of any changes to a product, wether that be material or design... That could be wishful thinking, but from the heavily regulated area I work in you can't just make changes to something and then leave the company with all that information in your head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Yes maybe, they seem to be that kind of company. I guess ultimately the only real answer is a bench test and see what squirts out the end. If the ebay ones work the same its almost a moot point if they're genuine or not, even if they don't last quite as long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jocklandjohn Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 3 hours ago, monkie said: Is he a member of this forum? I get what you are saying and I wouldn't knock his experience for a moment, however I am more interested in what Bosch themselves have to say on any apparent differences. To be honest I dounbt they can/will comment on anything that is not supplied through their approved distributor (I wouldn't get drawn into such conversion if I were them) but you have to ask... They'd certainly be interested in knowing whether fake Bosch-branded products are being sold openly as 'legitimate', and have a vested interest in preventing loss of reputation etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRC200Tdi Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 On 1/23/2021 at 3:46 PM, monkie said: It's an offset bushing... This is interesting. This is all very fascinating, thanks, Monkie, for the deep delve into this topic. After reading the article in the above link, I am led to believe that all genuine DSLA 145P injectors have the same spray patterns and otherwise correct pin size, ect..., and should therefore work correctly for the 200Tdi. The only variation should then be orifice size. It would be super useful if we knew what the orifice size was on the 200Tdi nozzles, then we could experiment with slightly bigger orifices (more fuel at a shorter duration - effectively advancing timing), as well as having more options for more commonly available nozzles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRC200Tdi Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 I meant to explain above that the '145' in DSLA 145P indicates that the spray angle is 145°. I found this useful page that lists a large number of nozzles with their technical data. Unfortunately the DSLA 145P 208 is not among those listed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRC200Tdi Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 9 hours ago, Eightpot said: Yes same nozzle. Very feint part number etched - dsla145p366 I guess this means that 300Tdi nozzle has had the same 145° spray angle as the 200TDdi all along, as Nonimouse mentioned at the beginning of this thread. I wonder what the difference in orifice size is... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRC200Tdi Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 Sorry, one more post. I did manage to find the 300Tdi nozzles on that web page I linked to earlier and the technical data are: 5x0.26x145°. This means that the 300Tdi injector nozzles have five orifices with a diameter of 0.26 micrometers with a 145° spray angle. By contrast, DSLA145P 300 has 5x0.29x145°,or larger 0.29 micrometer orifices. I am wondering if 300Tdi orifices are slightly larger than 200Tdi nozzles and a potential upgrade. I am even considering giving the 0.29 micrometer orifices a try. Also, I am really curious about the 7 orifice nozzles referenced in the article that Monkie liked to earlier, where the author states that, "The stock nozzles have 5 holes around the tip and some newer aftermarket nozzles have 7 holes for a finer spray." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRC200Tdi Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 Well, okay, one more post, sorry. I did eventually find the 200Tdi injector data and they report: 5x0.24x145°. This means that the 300Tdi injector nozzles are indeed slightly larger (0.020 micrometers larger) and a potential upgrade. Now I am really thinking about the 0.290 micrometer DSLA145P 300 nozzles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 interesting. So is there a difference between 200/300 FIP and the mount of fuel delivered or it's pressure? Assuming there's no difference in the output charge, then the difference with the injector is the way the spray is delivered - slightly higher volume/lower pressure/shorter duration? Maybe the 300 nozzle holes needed to be slightly larger to allow for the first low pressure pulse stage. mybe doen't attomize well with the smaller hole? More reading to be done..🤓 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRC200Tdi Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, Eightpot said: interesting. So is there a difference between 200/300 FIP and the mount of fuel delivered or it's pressure? Assuming there's no difference in the output charge, then the difference with the injector is the way the spray is delivered - slightly higher volume/lower pressure/shorter duration? Maybe the 300 nozzle holes needed to be slightly larger to allow for the first low pressure pulse stage. mybe doen't attomize well with the smaller hole? More reading to be done..🤓 I have always read that the non-electronic enhanced FIPs are the same between the 200 and 300 except for the provisions for the EGR. My 200Tdi came with a 300 FIP, as it has the EGR associated torx bolts on the boost-compensator cover. I think the 300Tdi FIPs were tuned with a higher lift at TDC, but I could be wrong, I can't remember. Anyway, perhaps they increased the orifice size and lift to match the increased turbo boost pressures in the 300Tdi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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