Side repeaters with LED light upgrade kit, do they still work?

[Jocklandjohn]

I'm contemplating adding LED side, stop and indicator lights to my '89 110. It all seems fairly straighforward - I have no fancy plugs in my loom for the existing lamps only various spade/bullet connectors so it'll be a cut off the new LED plugs and add the appropriate terminals, and swap the relay. So far so good.

However nothing I've found online explains what happens to the side repeater/indicator lamps on the front wings which are not included in the LED upgrade kits as far as I can see, although can be added as a separate item.

What I'm not certain about is if I leave my existing orange repeaters in place will they continue to function as before with the new LED relay or am I missing some fundamental thing like 'they wont work at all now' or be so dim as to be useless ?

Similarly, the headlamps I fitted recently have additional sidelight bulbs built in, which I have wired into the existing sidelight circuit - what will happen to those?

[fmmv]

They work. I have recently done exactly what you are planning with a Wipac kit. If you tow, you'll need to adjust the flasher relay to work with your trailer, otherwise just replace existing stuff.. If your trailer has led flashers you will need to add load resistors to the trailer otherwise the trailer indicator light circuitry can't detect absence of the small current led indicators take. The filament side indicators will work the same as always. I think your sidelights in the headlights will also work fine. Just make sure the polarity is correct if one of the led lamps doesn't work.

Edited October 31, 2023 by fmmv

[Peaklander]

The older vehicle such as yours (and mine) use a circuit at the indicator warning lamp in the dash, that isn't compatible with the use of leds at the indicators (and repeaters). If you change the front/rear indicators to leds, you also need to change the (green) flashing indicator at the dash. This is a tiny dual led that isolates the right and left side circuits so that the warning light works correctly.

I have not changed the repeaters as I thought at the time that they wouldn't work. BUT I don't remember why I thought that. I don't think it is a problem.

Edit: This is what I used https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394294827529

Sorry posted at the same time as @fmmv. Hopefully both comments help.

[fmmv]

As I recall I had to swap polarity of the two rear indicators. But in a 97 300 tdi the dash light works fine, to my surprise. Boltonbits do the dashlight fix if you need it. I have the side indicators to do but got acute cba- itis; it is on the todo list.

Edited October 31, 2023 by fmmv

[Jocklandjohn]

33 minutes ago, Peaklander said:

The older vehicle such as yours (and mine) use a circuit at the indicator warning lamp in the dash, that isn't compatible with the use of leds at the indicators (and repeaters). If you change the front/rear indicators to leds, you also need to change the (green) flashing indicator at the dash. This is a tiny dual led that isolates the right and left side circuits so that the warning light works correctly.

I have not changed the repeaters as I thought at the time that they wouldn't work. BUT I don't remember why I thought that. I don't think it is a problem.

Edit: This is what I used https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394294827529

Sorry posted at the same time as @fmmv. Hopefully both comments help.

 

35 minutes ago, fmmv said:

They work. I have recently done exactly what you are planning with a Wipac kit. If you tow, you'll need to adjust the flasher relay to work with your trailer, otherwise just replace existing stuff.. If your trailer has led flashers you will need to add load resistors to the trailer otherwise the trailer indicator light circuitry can't detect absence of the small current led indicators take. The filament side indicators will work the same as always. I think your sidelights in the headlights will also work fine. Just make sure the polarity is correct if one of the led lamps doesn't work.

Aha - thanks both of you, thats clarified it. I dont tow (often) but I do put a three bike carrier on with integrated lighting so I'll have to check what the bulb types are, but I suspect its not LED.

But thanks for the link to the RDX earth fix kit - I'd have had no idea!

I shall report back in due course and if required shout HELP!

 

Cheers

John

 

[Peaklander]

The other thing is, why don’t you get the matching electrical sockets and put them at the loom in place of the bullets?

Then you don’t need to cut them at the lamps.

Also they are polarity sensitive so if you do connect with wires, just check each one works and if not, reverse them.

@PaulMc will be able to advise and supply. 

[fmmv]

If you do have to swap polarity, ie in the econoseal connectors, there are some youtube videos on how to do that. I ended up hammering flat and filing a piece of welding wire to make a tool, like a very narrow flat screwdriver. Its a bit fiddly but have patience and wiggle the tool, they suddenly come apart. Edit:Ah but of course you are still on the bullets

Edited October 31, 2023 by fmmv

[fmmv]

And aesthetically I have doubts, but the improvement in lighting is very marked, and personally (!) I think outweighs the looks aspect for a working vehicle.

[Jocklandjohn]

58 minutes ago, Peaklander said:

The other thing is, why don’t you get the matching electrical sockets and put them at the loom in place of the bullets?

Then you don’t need to cut them at the lamps.

Also they are polarity sensitive so if you do connect with wires, just check each one works and if not, reverse them.

@PaulMc will be able to advise and supply. 

 

Ah - thats so simple I never even thought of it! Probably makes sense to not fiddle with the 'good' stuff and alter the crusty old ones!

 

49 minutes ago, fmmv said:

And aesthetically I have doubts, but the improvement in lighting is very marked, and personally (!) I think outweighs the looks aspect for a working vehicle.

Aesthetically..? I'm not getting any weird oversized stuff rather staying with the original 73mm (?) size as opposed to the larger ones, and certainly keeping the same colours as the older ones - the RDX kit is labelled 'traditional' and has the same look as far as I can see from the enclosed image. (But I'm not planning on getting the fog and reverse LED's only the sidelights and indicators.). Were you assuming I'd get the bigger ones? I think fitting anything too exotic would look like a tiara on a hedgehog....

 

[fmmv]

If I was restoring say a Series 1 that would be essentially a museum piece or driven on sunnay days but needs to look original, I wouldn't go LED.  But for a working Defender that might go out and be used, maybe in dark and wet conditions, to me they make sense. Especially now more modern cars have lights that are so much brighter.  But they definiitely look different. In any case it has to be a personal choice. I am pleased with mine.

Edited October 31, 2023 by fmmv

[Jocklandjohn]

Well my 110 is used regularly in all seasons, as a daily driver and for work in all conditions, and its already got a somewhat 'workish' vibe and some of the conditions (like a few days ago in a sleet-filled monsoon with added fog) its definitely a bonus being seen, or as the worst case might be on some remote hills tracks, be found!!

 

[fmmv]

Another bonus of the LEDs, seldom mentioned is that they consume much less current. Hardly important with the engine running, but with engine off they drain the battery much more slowly, I think they are 1W as I recall, the fog might be 2 or 3, but if you need to leave the lights on for a while, much less battery drain than the 5W or 21W of incandescents. 

[western]

Full set of side, indicator, brake/tail, reverse & rear fog on my 1989 110CSW plus I fitted led elements to the side repeaters, I don't have any dash issues as my Td5 warning light panel has seperate led indicator lights 

[Peaklander]

I don't think anyone notices the difference in looks, either on or off, unless they are LR owners themselves. The leds are much brighter but also offer less all-round light, which I don't think matters, as the increase in light directed forwards and backwards is so much better.

[Jocklandjohn]

1 hour ago, Peaklander said:

I don't think anyone notices the difference in looks, either on or off, unless they are LR owners themselves. The leds are much brighter but also offer less all-round light, which I don't think matters, as the increase in light directed forwards and backwards is so much better.

Aye I've seen some LR's with them but not realised they were LED until they were switched on. I imagine that even with their more obvious 'directionality' there's still such an increase in overall brightness compared to traditional lights that the side illumination isn't going to be too much different. Despite my best efforts to maintain a seal I keep having to empty water out of the current ones so having IP67 units should be a real bonus!

[Jocklandjohn]

Rightyo - changed sidelights to LED's first yesterday and all good apart from a shonky earth terminal on the passenger rear which caused the sidelight to go off/on intermittently which I fixed and its all now working as expected.

Today I put on one indicator at front to see what would happen and as expected the relay went into overdrive until I changed it for the new RDX relay and it all worked fine.

So I went ahead changed all the indicators. Checked each corner as i did them and all was working as expected.

However once I switched on the sidelights and indicated on the rear drivers side, the drivers rear sidelight flashes in tune with the drivers rear indicator - indicator on/sidelight off....indicator off/sidelight on....and so on as it flashes. Also as this is going on the foglight warning light on the dash is just barely glowing.

But if I actually switch on the foglight at its steering column switch so the warning lamp on dash is fully litup orange, neither the rear driver sidelight nor the indicator will work. (And the foglight doesn't light at all with any combination I've tried as far as I can see.)

Any suggestions as to whats afoot? Earth problem in the rear drivers side maybe?

I know RDX mention an earth fix kit but thats for a indicator glow not the issue I have.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Jocklandjohn

[Jocklandjohn]

PS  can confirm side repeaters DO still work!

[fmmv]

I think prime suspect has to be earth connections, might be ones  to the lights or esp if it afflicts all, the earthing points, eg on the transfer box RH side, bulkhead etc.

[Jocklandjohn]

2 minutes ago, fmmv said:

I think prime suspect has to be earth connections, might be ones  to the lights or esp if it afflicts all, the earthing points, eg on the transfer box RH side, bulkhead etc.

Thank you, I'll have a poke around them. I did replace the main earths a few years back and every few services I give them a scrape and vaseline.

I found a cluster of thin internal earths (3 or 4 black wires) on the rear passenger side that had their ring terminal corroded to nothing which was the cause of the sidelight problem on that side. Is there a similar earth cluster on the drivers side?  (I ask because I cant just easily peek as I need to dismantle some stuff to get access to the clump of wires which I can do tomorrow). But if one side has a corrosion issue its likely yhr other does too - the van is 34 years old so stuff is getting tired.

The only issuse as far as I can see affect the rear drivers side: indicator, sidelight and foglamp which suggests a common cause (to my not-hugely-electrically-experienced mind.).

It was all ok before touching the indicator wiring so maybe I've disturbed something in that bit of loom. The original indicator was earthed to the body with the filament bulb copper strip so maybe thats the cause.

[Mutley]

With regards to this Threads Title "Side repeaters with LED light upgrade kit, do they still work?"  I would just like to answer with "INTERMITTENTLY!!!"

Sorry guys, it was too easy! Yeah i know it's sad, but after 3 months off work and being home alone while the wife goes out to work. Sometimes it all gets too much!?!

[Jocklandjohn]

Well all I can say is "...I'm glad you're not a flasher...!"  Let me repeat that for those at the back "I'm glad you're not a flasher...!"

 

 

Update
As a test, after considering it last night, I put a non-LED indicator back on and it worked perfectly and so did all the lights/indicatprs etc. So I figured its an earth problem.

After a bit of dismantling to get. access I'd a good poke around on the errant side and found a group of black earths on a ring terminal, the ring was grotty, and a single wire was broken and the other end nowhere to be seen, however I soon found it in the loom, and once the earth cluster was cleaned up and put on a new terminal with the broken wire replaced it all worked perfectly.

I think it was that single broken earth that was the issue - one wire creating all that weirdness.

I stil need to test the setup with the trailer board (big 3 bike rack) and see if it all works, but this will do for today as its sub-zero.

Thanks all for the help!

[Snagger]

It did seem likely to be an earth.  They are responsible for a very high proportion of electrical problems on cars, especially since they are so neglected as they look less conspicuous than the other side of the circuits and are often common to several circuits.