swivel bearing grease

[pinny]

im looking to change to swivel bearing grease rather than ep90 any suggestions is it worth changing that say it requires no further maintenance is this true

[BogMonster]

I would stick with EP90 personally, I like to know when there is a leak and I like to be able to change it.

Sadly I have to use grease as my 90 is too new to have the drain bungs so was "greased" at the factory but if I could I would stick with oil.

[DiscoClax]

I remember some time ago seeing some mention (on another forum... ahem) of using some whiz-bang special grease ilo of the factory specified EP90 (or EP80 for cooler climates). Apparently it doubles your chances of winning the lottery and clears up acne, too. I've always run either EP90 or lately EP85w140, especially as I've had a weeping swivel seal and I'm lazy The 85w140 doesn't thin out as much as it warms up, and I operate in reasonably warm conditions year-round, so was willing to make this minor deviation and live with the miniscule effect on fuel consumption for possibly better wear protection and shock cushioning (and slower leaking). BTW I've just replaced the offending swivel seal using the Les "dodgy" quick-change method (refer tech archives). Seems to have worked a treat - except for the join which is leaking like a stuck-pig. More likely due to my rushed workmanship in less-than-ideal conditions (lying on my back under car on gravel, gale-force winds, rain, annoying small children) than any problem with the method. Silicone applied with extreme prejudice now, fingers crossed.

I'm a professional driveline engineer and know first-hand the ridiculous amount of testing and validation done by the OEM vehicle manufacturers to ensure proper operation and durability and economy and compliance with emissions regs and... Therefore, I'd have to recommend as a general rule not deviating away from the specified lubricant/torque/fuel/instruction/etc unless you have a good, thoroughly researched reason to do it. Lecture over, normal programming re-commenced

Also, IMHO, regular changing of lubricating fluids is mandatory for long life. All oils/greases have additives along with the base oil. EP gear oils have an extreme-pressure (EP) additive which will degrade over time, especially if operated at high temperatures (most common EP additives will boil-off at somewhere between 160-180degC for instance), which then reduces the oil's ability to cushion shock and stop the metal bits taking chunks out of each other. There's also anti-foaming additives (to stop the oil from frothing like a rabid dog and pumping itself out of the breathers and away from the bearing surfaces), anti-waxing agents (to stop the oil becoming solid at low temps), anti-glazing agents, additives to hold the contaminants in suspension, and many other boring but essential ones. Most of the advances made in modern lubricant relate to improved additives. They all degrade with time, oxidation, temperature cycling, contamination with dirt/metal/moisture/etc. Mineral-based oils also "lose" an amount of their viscosity in the first few hundred or thousand kms due to the internal-molecular-bonds being chopped-up, shortening the chains. (now where did I leave my anorak?) Not so much of a problem with synthetic oils which resist this very well. Depending on your usage profile, I'd be changing (mineral-based) fluids at least every 2yrs/50,000kms as a rough guide, or more often if it cops a flogging (heavy towing, harsh environment use, courier work, etc. It's cheap insurance, and please get decent stuff - not the cheapest you can find. Just don't get me started on "sealed-for-life" automatic transmissions/bearings/CVs/etc... Aaaargh!

Caveat:- All of the above is merely my opinion and no pangs of guilt will be experienced for any subsequent damages or hair-loss. So there!

[JimAttrill]

I would stick with EP90 personally, I like to know when there is a leak and I like to be able to change it.

Sadly I have to use grease as my 90 is too new to have the drain bungs so was "greased" at the factory but if I could I would stick with oil.

My '95 version still has the 3 plugs - filler, level and drain, and I also still use EP90. One problem with the later versions is that if you do wading you don't know if water has got in with the grease and you can't drain the grease out anyway. My answer to the grease question is always this: "If grease is so wonderful why aren't the gearboxes filled with it?"

[pinny]

thanks guys just wanted other peoples opinion thanks

[pinny]

I remember some time ago seeing some mention (on another forum... ahem) of using some whiz-bang special grease ilo of the factory specified EP90 (or EP80 for cooler climates). Apparently it doubles your chances of winning the lottery and clears up acne, too. I've always run either EP90 or lately EP85w140, especially as I've had a weeping swivel seal and I'm lazy The 85w140 doesn't thin out as much as it warms up, and I operate in reasonably warm conditions year-round, so was willing to make this minor deviation and live with the miniscule effect on fuel consumption for possibly better wear protection and shock cushioning (and slower leaking). BTW I've just replaced the offending swivel seal using the Les "dodgy" quick-change method (refer tech archives). Seems to have worked a treat - except for the join which is leaking like a stuck-pig. More likely due to my rushed workmanship in less-than-ideal conditions (lying on my back under car on gravel, gale-force winds, rain, annoying small children) than any problem with the method. Silicone applied with extreme prejudice now, fingers crossed.

I'm a professional driveline engineer and know first-hand the ridiculous amount of testing and validation done by the OEM vehicle manufacturers to ensure proper operation and durability and economy and compliance with emissions regs and... Therefore, I'd have to recommend as a general rule not deviating away from the specified lubricant/torque/fuel/instruction/etc unless you have a good, thoroughly researched reason to do it. Lecture over, normal programming re-commenced

Also, IMHO, regular changing of lubricating fluids is mandatory for long life. All oils/greases have additives along with the base oil. EP gear oils have an extreme-pressure (EP) additive which will degrade over time, especially if operated at high temperatures (most common EP additives will boil-off at somewhere between 160-180degC for instance), which then reduces the oil's ability to cushion shock and stop the metal bits taking chunks out of each other. There's also anti-foaming additives (to stop the oil from frothing like a rapid dog and pumping itself out of the breathers and away from the bearing surfaces), anti-waxing agents (to stop the oil becoming solid at low temps), anti-glazing agents, additives to hold the contaminants in suspension, and many other boring but essential ones. Most of the advances made in modern lubricant relate to improved additives. They all degrade with time, oxidation, temperature cycling, contamination with dirt/metal/moisture/etc. Mineral-based oils also "lose" an amount of their viscosity in the first few hundred or thousand kms due to the internal-molecular-bonds being chopped-up, shortening the chains. (now where did I leave my anorak?) Not so much of a problem with synthetic oils which resist this very well. Depending on your usage profile, I'd be changing (mineral-based) fluids at least every 2yrs/50,000kms as a rough guide, or more often if it cops a flogging (heavy towing, harsh environment use, courier work, etc. It's cheap insurance, and please get decent stuff - not the cheapest you can find. Just don't get me started on "sealed-for-life" automatic transmissions/bearings/CVs/etc... Aaaargh!

Caveat:- All of the above is merely my opinion and no pangs of guilt will be experienced for any subsequent damages or hair-loss. So there!

thanks for an indepth insight thanks again

[DiscoClax]

No worries, glad to help. Sorry I got a bit carried away... I do that sometimes

[DefcoL]

I remember some time ago seeing some mention (on another forum... ahem) of using some whiz-bang special grease ilo of the factory specified EP90 (or EP80 for cooler climates). Apparently it doubles your chances of winning the lottery and clears up acne, too. I've always run either EP90 or lately EP85w140, especially as I've had a weeping swivel seal and I'm lazy The 85w140 doesn't thin out as much as it warms up, and I operate in reasonably warm conditions year-round, so was willing to make this minor deviation and live with the miniscule effect on fuel consumption for possibly better wear protection and shock cushioning (and slower leaking). BTW I've just replaced the offending swivel seal using the Les "dodgy" quick-change method (refer tech archives). Seems to have worked a treat - except for the join which is leaking like a stuck-pig. More likely due to my rushed workmanship in less-than-ideal conditions (lying on my back under car on gravel, gale-force winds, rain, annoying small children) than any problem with the method. Silicone applied with extreme prejudice now, fingers crossed.

I'm a professional driveline engineer and know first-hand the ridiculous amount of testing and validation done by the OEM vehicle manufacturers to ensure proper operation and durability and economy and compliance with emissions regs and... Therefore, I'd have to recommend as a general rule not deviating away from the specified lubricant/torque/fuel/instruction/etc unless you have a good, thoroughly researched reason to do it. Lecture over, normal programming re-commenced

Also, IMHO, regular changing of lubricating fluids is mandatory for long life. All oils/greases have additives along with the base oil. EP gear oils have an extreme-pressure (EP) additive which will degrade over time, especially if operated at high temperatures (most common EP additives will boil-off at somewhere between 160-180degC for instance), which then reduces the oil's ability to cushion shock and stop the metal bits taking chunks out of each other. There's also anti-foaming additives (to stop the oil from frothing like a rapid dog and pumping itself out of the breathers and away from the bearing surfaces), anti-waxing agents (to stop the oil becoming solid at low temps), anti-glazing agents, additives to hold the contaminants in suspension, and many other boring but essential ones. Most of the advances made in modern lubricant relate to improved additives. They all degrade with time, oxidation, temperature cycling, contamination with dirt/metal/moisture/etc. Mineral-based oils also "lose" an amount of their viscosity in the first few hundred or thousand kms due to the internal-molecular-bonds being chopped-up, shortening the chains. (now where did I leave my anorak?) Not so much of a problem with synthetic oils which resist this very well. Depending on your usage profile, I'd be changing (mineral-based) fluids at least every 2yrs/50,000kms as a rough guide, or more often if it cops a flogging (heavy towing, harsh environment use, courier work, etc. It's cheap insurance, and please get decent stuff - not the cheapest you can find. Just don't get me started on "sealed-for-life" automatic transmissions/bearings/CVs/etc... Aaaargh!

Caveat:- All of the above is merely my opinion and no pangs of guilt will be experienced for any subsequent damages or hair-loss. So there!

very informative.... what is your take on grease in winches? just stripped down my tmax 9500 and was none too impressed with feel of grease

As my M8274-50 is designed to use oil, my take would be that this must be the best way.. So my question would be why dont all winch's use oil?

[DiscoClax]

very informative.... what is your take on grease in winches? just stripped down my tmax 9500 and was none too impressed with feel of grease

As my M8274-50 is designed to use oil, my take would be that this must be the best way.. So my question would be why dont all winch's use oil?

Hmmm, not sure I can speak (type?) with any authority on winches. I'd say it probably comes down to what it was designed to use. Just like different transmissions/diffs/engines/etc are designed for different grades of oil/grease, and changing these can adversely affect function or durability, I guess winches are largely the same. The bearing areas and seals would be typically designed for that lubricant type and characteristics, and changing that may cause problems (wear, leaks, etc). I'd generally go with a good-quality version of whatever lubricant is recommended by the manufacturer in that specific equipment, but it's not my area of expertise so it's a conservative statement.

Are there any winch experts out there that can shed any light?

I'm looking to fit a winch in the (hopefully not to distant) future, so I'm quite interested if there are any tips or tricks to keeping them lubed adequately.

[Ally V8]

You could carry on for ever arguing about wether we should use oil or grease in swivel housings,I will now muddy the waters even more.(Pun intended)

My point is,some lube is better than none - over the years how many drain plugs have I taken out and nothing has come out,worse still rusty water - no joke.What percentage of 4wd's EVER have swivels checked,not all of them go to 4wd specialists.Most ordinary garages seem to think the diff oil does the hubs aswell.

So I'll carry on using one shot grease,if I'm not the next garage to service it the chances are it will still have something wet in there - seen the consequences of dry CV's more than once.

[JimAttrill]

I agree. We put grease in all vehicles that come in for a service. But I run EP90 in my own 110. We had a RR in the other day where someone had put a grease nipple in one of the plugs and injected about 10cc of grease which was just sitting there doint nothing. The CV joint was stuffed, of course.

[Phil Hancock]

My point is,some lube is better than none - over the years how many drain plugs have I taken out and nothing has come out,worse still rusty water - no joke.

That was my Salisbury front axle!! luckily the gears as they contain Chromium as one of the ingredients in the steel survived ok but not the bearings, one new set of bearings later and a total internal wash & i have a usable axle.

[JimAttrill]

The favourite thing with the Salisbury is for the filler plug to fall into the diff, then all the oil comes out. And yes, the bearings go, but normally the gears are ok after running dry. Chromium, eh?

[discotony]

I am curious, if the grease is so bad, why have Landrover changed to it? From what I have read, it was introduced in 1998 to new vehicles and added as a mod to older ones that came in for service. The grease is LR part no. FTC3435. I cant see Landrover introducing something to reduce reliability! Has anyone done this mod themselves? Hows it done? Mr Haynes has done his usual trick, leads you down the garden path to the part you need then tells you nowt!

[BogMonster]

A cynic (definitely not me) might well say that the grease was introduced to reduce the incidence of leaks in vehicles still under warranty!

The reason I don't like it is that it hides the underlying problem (leaking seal) rather than repairing it.

[discotony]

A cynic (definitely not me) might well say that the grease was introduced to reduce the incidence of leaks in vehicles still under warranty!

The reason I don't like it is that it hides the underlying problem (leaking seal) rather than repairing it.

Fair comment, but why have Landrover suddenly started worrying about leaks? Doesnt usualy bother them! Landrovers are like old British motorbikes, not affraid to leave their mark!

[JimAttrill]

Discotony, I am afraid you are one of the few about who believe anything that LR say. Every change they make to the vehicles is usually to make the thing cheaper to make or easier to service while under warranty. Note the grease and the non-adjustable taper roller bearings. By the time you need to change the grease or adjust the bearings the thing is out of warranty so it is not their problem any more.

To this I can add this red OAT antifreeze which has a long life (about until the warranty runs out) and then solidifies in your radiator. There is a class action suit going on in the US against Cadillac about this stuff.

Anyway, if LR was interested in improving their vehicles they would have fitted a swing-away spare wheel carrier to the Defender years ago. And done something about the silly SIII clutch master cylinder that they still fit. So what do they do? Bling the dashboard.

[FridgeFreezer]

To be a bit punctilious, the swivel grease is more like a grease/oil mix and appears to contain graphite, when I ran normal axles I was in favour of it for swivels and wheel bearings as it gives a good halfway house IMHO - it doesn't leak anywhere near so easily, so you're more likely to have some lubricant where it's needed, and it doesn't clump up and stick to things like grease, so it's more likely to flow about the place a bit and get where it's needed.

As for grease in winches - I think it's just easier/cheaper to use grease as it avoids having to include expensive things like decent seals and drain/filler plugs into the unit. I didn't know 8274's run oil, but my H14 is the same - I'd say both are towards the higher end of their relative spectra so perhaps better winches use oil and cheapo ones use grease?

[RRX]

On my disco I had one swivel with oil and one with grease(was like it when I got it), guess which wheel bearing failed 1000 miles after buying. The oil filled one due to it all dissapearing. Both now greased.