Which suspension kit would you go for?

[FridgeFreezer]

Good point, but then an S1 doesn't "handle" anyway does it?

Just because LR can't manage to get something right doesn't mean it's not a good idea

Anyone know what Santana do with their springs - even the new ones are parabolic leafers (and the 2.8 TDi goes like stink) so I would guess it's something they've had to look at.

[bill van snorkle]

I was thinking about that last night after reading Bill's post - and wishing I'd read it before starting the 109 since all the chassis bits are available off the shelf from Paddocks and the like for no money it would probably be a good weekend's work to reverse the shackles.

My only concern, and I have no idea how real it may be, is that having the shackles on the front may affect the steering / on-road handling (in as much as keeping it pointing in a straight line) as you have the extra "wobble" of a shackle on the leading end of the spring rather than trailing along behind.

Bill, can you comment on that at all? I haven't ever paid attention to how other vehicles have their shackles - next time I see a truck with the shackles on the front I'll have to see if there's anything they do to combat this or if it really isn't an issue.

Another long winded reply I'm afraid gents.

I spoke to the chief engineer of LandRover Australia many years ago and asked him why they changed the shackle location on later 80'' models. He claimed it was done to maintain a more constant castor angle over the life of the springs, whatever that means. I asked him if he realised the change had seriously compromised the crosscountry capabilities of the vehicle, his answer was that he couldn't comment about that as he had never driven both examples offroad to compare them. Well I have and the difference is chalk and cheese in favor of the early forward shackle model.

I bought an old BJ40 Toyota a few of years ago for its 3litre deisel engine that I one day intend to fit into my Landey. I used the vehicle for a month until the registration expired. The springs were sagged, steering tie rod ends and spring bushings were all well worn and the shock absorbers were leaking and past their best, but the truck remained very drivable, even at the higher speeds that my low geared Landey was incapable of. Offroad the truck felt much more hooked up to the terrain than any stanard Leaf sprung LandRover I have ever owned or driven.One day on the way to work the left hand track rod end body separated from the ballpin at 30 mph and both front wheels splayed out in opposite directions almost causing me to collide with a heavy power pole. Thats how worn the tie rod ends were yet up to the time of the incident the trucks handling was still ok. In general Leaf sprung Landcruisers and Jeeps do have squirrely steering and directional stability compared to a leaf Landey in good fettle, but I have always put this down to their drag link attaching to the trackrod instead of directly to the left hand side (UK, Aus) steering arm as Landies are arranged. Get someone to turn the steering wheel backwards and forwards on its freeplay with a Toyota, Jeep etc and you will notice a lot of lost motion as the trackrod rolls around on its ball joints before attempting to turn the wheels.Try the same thing with a Landey in good nick and there is no lost motion because the steering inputs are acting directly on the steering arm at the swivel.

300BHP/ton. yes it can be changed around. It's just metal fabrication after all. On a previous thread on the same subject I described how you could easily and cheaply experiment with the concept before committing to the fab work. When this splitting headache that I presently have clears I will try to find the post or rewrite the description later on.

Bill.

Bill.

[jericho]

The tramp rod I made for the stage 1 started as a rear lower control arm from an old Rangey. I cut the 5/8'' dia pin off the chassis end of this arm and welded the stepped pin from the chassis end of a front radius arm to it and then used the standard 2 piece rubber bushings on either side of a bracket made from a piece of 1'' thick steel plate with the approprate size hole bored into it. This bracket bolted to the bottom of the winch bar more or less inline with the front spring bushes. The centre mount for this rod at the axle end was approximately 4'' above the axle centreline.

Bill.

Bill,if I am picturing this correctly,then I would imagine your tramp rod fighting against the natural tendancy of the axle to move backwards slightly as the spring flexes upwards,and so inducing some axle wrap in the opposite direction to normal.Please tell me I'm wrong,because otherwise it sounds such a simple soution.

Shackle reversal sounds good,just exploring all posibilities.

Allways enjoy your lengthy well informed contributions.

Jerry.

[FridgeFreezer]

Bill,if I am picturing this correctly,then I would imagine your tramp rod fighting against the natural tendancy of the axle to move backwards slightly as the spring flexes upwards,and so inducing some axle wrap in the opposite direction to normal.Please tell me I'm wrong,because otherwise it sounds such a simple soution.

Yeah it does - I was planning something more like the ladder bar shown here:

http://www.4x4wire.com/jeep/tech/susp/axlewrap/

Which to my uninformed eye looks like a very good article on anti-wrap (mainly because it has pictures with arrows on, which I can understand )

This is what I am planning:

Just re-reading it I guess the potential catch* with Bill's single-bar forward-facing design is that under acceleration/braking the bar may stay still but the axle can still rotate and squish the springs. If the bar is mounted behind the axle then it would be the opposite to the diagram below (as the 'merkins use spring over axle) and the effect would be the same:

This system is effective because it does the exact opposite of what a bar located above the springs does. This system puts the spring under tension during acceleration, which tends to pull it straight and prevent it from going into the dreaded "S" shape.

So under acceleration induced wrap the bar would be in tension and the front half of the spring would too (if the axle tried to wrap), and under braking induced wrap the opposite would be true.

* = Not implying that there IS a catch, just that there could be, I would be the first to admit I am not worthy to touch the hem of Bill's garment in engineering terms.

[bill van snorkle]

Bill,if I am picturing this correctly,then I would imagine your tramp rod fighting against the natural tendancy of the axle to move backwards slightly as the spring flexes upwards,and so inducing some axle wrap in the opposite direction to normal.Please tell me I'm wrong,because otherwise it sounds such a simple soution.

Shackle reversal sounds good,just exploring all posibilities.

Allways enjoy your lengthy well informed contributions.

Jerry.

Thanks Jerry. There is a surprising amount of compliance in those 2 piece radius arm bushings. they permitted the springs to cycle naturally from full droop to full compression,and full side to side articulation on longer military shock absorbers without any noticable distortion to the loose clamped main spring leaves. I think the rod simply provided an absolute limit to how far the whole axle could move backwards and forwards in relation to the chassis,something the leaf springs could never do, but being a single rod centrally mounted, it only provided some additional but sufficient resistance to one side or the other moving about.

Bill.

[bill van snorkle]

Fridge, Thanks, but I am just as capable of screwing up as anyone. I've just been fortunate in the past to have had the free time and access to facilities to permit me to work through and find solutions to all or some of the bloody problems that Tom Barton and his merry men at LadRover Engineering presented us with.

The ladder bars in your sketches are indeed a proven solution, and are commonly employed usually on the rear suspension t cure tramp. The problem I have found is that conversions and modifications that are fairly simple and straightforward on other brands of 4x4's are usually a PITA to apply to leaf sprung Landrovers due to cramped design and lack of space. Mount the ladder bar outbard of the chassis rails and steering lock is severely restricted. Inboard, Where? Right handside-diff and propshaft is inthe way. Left hand side ? maybe possible with a 2 1/4 engine and single exhaust, but v8's and TDI's seem to pretty much fill up the available space that a ladderbar would need to work, unless you mount it so low as in one of the sketches that it compromises ground clearance or rampover angle.

My single control arm was only ever intended as a temporary bandaid solution to tide my friend over until I built his hybrid. Before trying it I saw it as something quite easy to make and fit without having to reposition any other components, and the results good or bad would be known within a couple of hours. As stated on my previous post the result was very pleasing and really transformed the crosscountry ability of the truck. Being a LWB I don't think it was as sensitive to the rearing/jacking characteristic that rear shackles produce as a swb would have been, so we called it good (enough) and moved on.

Bill.

[300bhp/ton]

While I personally find this topic very interesting and am keen to look into reversing the shackles as it appears pretty straight forward, I have to say that while evidently the stock setup is compromised I've never seen it hinder a vehicle navigate a particular terrain. Leaf sprung Landie's do very well in competition even at CCV level.

Bill, anychance you could expand on the real world instances where the stock shackle location has proved to be a limiting factor?

Ta

[bill van snorkle]

Bill, anychance you could expand on the real world instances where the stock shackle location has proved to be a limiting factor?

Ta

I think post number19 on page1 covers it reasonably well. But every time I see a Leaf sprung Landy fail to climb a steep bank or cross a ridge at an oblique angle and the front end starts leaping about all over the place,accompanied by the horrid banging and clunking noises that signify components in distress I am reminded that the design was flawed. Especially after a Cruiser or Jeep walks straight through or over the same obstacle as if it wasn't there.

Some may wonder why I still persevere with Landrovers when there are so many things I am critical of. Well I persevere not for any technical reasons. My reasons are purely chauvanistic. LandRovers are that little bit of England inside of me that just refuses to let go. Silly aren't I ?

[FridgeFreezer]

While I personally find this topic very interesting and am keen to look into reversing the shackles as it appears pretty straight forward,

I think reversing the shackles only solves half of the problem, especially with parabolics and a nice V8 you have the power to twist the spring into an S-shape whichever end the shackle is. Swapping the shackles just stops the effect of the axle compressing the front of the spring under acceleration if I've got this right...

Although you may never notice wrap happening (I never did) it certainly does - when I took the shocks off the 109 the front ones were crushed at the bottom, yet there is no way anything could've fouled them or done the damage that was there. I wrote it off as something must've got caught in there and squished the shock, however unlikely that is for both sides to have the same damage. I only picked up on it when Bill spoke of it as a sign of wrap in one of his earlier posts.

[300bhp/ton]

I think reversing the shackles only solves half of the problem, especially with parabolics and a nice V8 you have the power to twist the spring into an S-shape whichever end the shackle is. Swapping the shackles just stops the effect of the axle compressing the front of the spring under acceleration if I've got this right...

I agree it will only solve part of the problem but with a standard diesel or petrol 2.25 I can't see it being such an issue.

I am interested to find out how different YJ Jeeps are setup as I've never heard of this problem with them and they run mostly 4.0 litre straigh 6's as stock but quite a few convert to 5.7 litre Chevy V8's.

I do admit that parabolics seem to be a thing of mystery to them though as there are NO US suppliers for Jeeps so they all run regular after market leaf suspension, but you do have to admit they do flex really well.

[jericho]

while evidently the stock setup is compromised I've never seen it hinder a vehicle navigate a particular terrain. Leaf sprung Landie's do very well in competition even at CCV level.

Ta

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dont mean to be rude,but have you driven series landrovers off road?

I think the abundance of mud in this country does something to hide the short commings of the series front suspension.My own worst experiences of axle tramp have been on dry steep rocky climbs where the wheels have good grip,enabling the springs to really wind themselves up,then suddenly break free.This phenomenon just does not happen with coil sprung landrovers.

[bill van snorkle]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think the abundance of mud in this country

Mud! What's that then? With the on going drought over here I doubt I will ever see mud again. Driving over what were muddy tracks a few years back is now like driving over ploughed concrete.

Bill.

[SOA 93]

300BHP/ton. yes it can be changed around. It's just metal fabrication after all. On a previous thread on the same subject I described how you could easily and cheaply experiment with the concept before committing to the fab work. When this splitting headache that I presently have clears I will try to find the post or rewrite the description later on.

Bill.

Bill.

You put your feet up and relax Bill.......... this is the thread he's referring to http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=7572

[bill van snorkle]

You put your feet up and relax Bill.......... this is the thread he's referring to http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=7572

Thanks for that Andy.

Did you receive my reply to your PM ? I inadvertantly unticked one of the boxes on my PM inbox and lost all record of your and my correspondance.

Bill.

[Tonk]

i used to get axle tramp when using more supple springs, i could tell that by the dents in the bottoms of the front shocks, i now run stiffer parabolics and fitted new shocks (old ones weren't knackered but i needed longer ones) and haven't dented the shocks due to tramp yet. although stiffer springs do rattle your fillings out on harder terrain.

[300bhp/ton]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dont mean to be rude,but have you driven series landrovers off road?

I think the abundance of mud in this country does something to hide the short commings of the series front suspension.My own worst experiences of axle tramp have been on dry steep rocky climbs where the wheels have good grip,enabling the springs to really wind themselves up,then suddenly break free.This phenomenon just does not happen with coil sprung landrovers.

I'll be honest I don't drive a leafer very often at present, and now that Bill has given a very good description I can actually picture in my head the axle tramp in action.

But I will be honest and say 90% of the off roading I do is mudding and never rocks.

[300bhp/ton]

So does anyone know what the YJ Jeep uses as a setup with the shackles at the front?

[bill van snorkle]

So does anyone know what the YJ Jeep uses as a setup with the shackles at the front?

AFAIK we didn't get the YJ model here in OZ, but I think their shackle arrangement would be similar to something like the earlier CJ's, or even the Suzuki SJ,s which I believe are reasonably common enough in the UK for you to get a look at one.

I think the YJ was only fitted with a panhard rod on the rear, which severely limited articulation, so many serious users in the US fitted quick disconnect links for offroad use.

Bill.

[300bhp/ton]

AFAIK we didn't get the YJ model here in OZ, but I think their shackle arrangement would be similar to something like the earlier CJ's, or even the Suzuki SJ,s which I believe are reasonably common enough in the UK for you to get a look at one.

I think the YJ was only fitted with a panhard rod on the rear, which severely limited articulation, so many serious users in the US fitted quick disconnect links for offroad use.

Bill.

We did get the YJ here in the UK, but they are pretty rare and I don't know anyone with one. I am a member of Jeepforum so I'll try and see if I can get someone to take some pics of the front suspension setup.

If I was wanting to experiement and fit the shackles on the front of the springs instead how would the angle of the spring be affected?

I mean could I simply bolt the rear of the front spring to the chassis in the same manner as the front currently is? Or would I need to fab up a bracket to the same height of the existing shackle so the rear mounting eye of the spring reminas at the same height?

Although once adding the shackle to the front of the spring I assume it will place the sping 'x' amount further from the chassis, so I suspect this would affect the ride height.

Cheers

[Tonk]

personally i'd fab up mounts from the chassis to locate the rear of the front spring at the same height as it sits at present, then at the front lob off the protusions sticking down which hold the spring at the moment and weld on some bush holders like the ones on the chassis on the back of the rear springs.

[bill van snorkle]

personally i'd fab up mounts from the chassis to locate the rear of the front spring at the same height as it sits at present, then at the front lob off the protusions sticking down which hold the spring at the moment and weld on some bush holders like the ones on the chassis on the back of the rear springs.

I would try to arrange it so that the forward spring eye is a little higher from the ground than the rearward spring eye, to aim the base of the spring slightly towards the direction of travel. One criticism occasionally levelled at Toyota's with relatively hoizontal spring mounting is that if the vehicle is driven across a drain or ditch at speed the axle can be pushed back and kink or break the main leaves. I have seen it happen only once and heard of it happening on 3 or 4 occasions, but of the many thousands of these vehicles being mercilessly hammered day in day out over the roughest roads outback OZ has to offer, I don't believe it to be a regular occurance.

Bill.

[300bhp/ton]

Found one example where having the shackles on the front of the springs was a disadvantage.

Last weekend was the ALRC National trials, on the CCV event one of the sections had a very steep slippy drop down onto a concrete roadway. It was near vertical and slightly higher than a Land Rover. Defenders where banging the front bumper as they went down, but over all everyone was getting down without incident. Except for a very early Series 1 with the shackles at the front, as he decended the shackles must have been fully compressed and limted the front approch angle as both shackles dug hard into the roadway, the end result was one spring had all but one leaf snapped and the rear mount disconnected from the chassis. Only a few cars before a slightly younger Series 1 with the shackles at the rear had made the same decent without problem.

Personally I still like the idea of having the shackles at the front, but I guess it goes to show there is no one perfect answer.

Sorry no pics.

[backball]

Looking for a suspension kit for a 88" 2.25 diesel Series 3.

It's a pickup (so pretty light weight) and will be used pretty exclusively off road, say 90% of the time. So on road manners are not that important really, nor will high speed performance as the diesel engine will probably only take it up to 60mph or so.

I want it to be very capable and very flexy. It won't be used to hauling or towing just off roading Will probably run some aggressive 265/75R15's like the Insa Turbo's (Simex Extreme Trekker pattern) or maybe even some 33.12.50's if they'll fit without too much hassle.

Here are the kits I've been looking at:

1. Explorer Pro Comp UK £414.75

http://www.explorerprocomp.co.uk/acatalog/...Land_Rover.html

It comes with ES3000 shocks, bushes, U bolts and green British Springs.

I've heard mixed opinions so far on the green springs, are they ok or are they not so good compared to the other springs available?

Also what shocks would work best for my application?

2. CP Components Package A £478.00

http://www.cp-components.co.uk/product_details.asp?pid=61

These have red/maroon springs and ES1000 shocks?

Evidently this kit costs more but is it worth it?

Also again with the shocks?

3. CP Components Custom package £504.00

http://www.cp-components.co.uk/product_details.asp?pid=31

Standard duty springs

Polybush

ES3000 shocks

This is essentially the same as the Package A above but with ES3000 shocks, is the extra money worth it?

4. Heystee Automotive

I'm pretty sure both of these kits are the same, just different suppliers.

http://www.heystee-automotive.com/

http://www.parabolicsuspension.com/landrover/lrover.htm

Kit 715.10.1

Don't know much about these, are these the TIC springs I here mentioned? How good are these kits, the shocks look different are they as good as the Pro Comps?

With all the above kits I'd also add a shackle lift like this one: http://www.cp-components.co.uk/product_details.asp?pid=21

5. Gon2Far

I still like the idea of the Gon2Far setup, but so far I haven't been able to get any availability or pricing from CP Components. Assuming it is still available do you think it would be worth it?

I'm looking for real world ability, I know the Gon2Far looks impressive on the RTI ramp but does anyone have any experience using it off road, such as a trials section or more survive green laning?

Sorry for so long but I would appreciate any insight into these kits.

Did you get any response from CPC? Also what's this concept of revolver? RPR also mentions this on his Tonk? Is this essentially a dislocating mechanism much like on coilers to extend articulation?

Afternote: I guess I just an answer to my first question... a revolver is an extended "shackle" with a moving link in between from what I see which brings me to another question. Wouldn't body roll not be prohibitive on road unless the revolver is firmly locked onroad?

[RobotMan]

£65 for the extended shackle kit from CPC seems a bit steep.

CPC Shackle Kit

Paddocks, and probably others too, do them much cheaper. £17.95 Front and £14.95 Rear sets + VAT makes £38.66 a couple of other bits to take you over the £50 free delivery threshhold and your quids in.

Paddocks Shackle Kit

I have a set I've been meaning to fit to my rears as my CPC 2+1 parabolics are sagging a bit after 6 years, nice and flexy though!

[jimfoo]

I think post number19 on page1 covers it reasonably well. But every time I see a Leaf sprung Landy fail to climb a steep bank or cross a ridge at an oblique angle and the front end starts leaping about all over the place,accompanied by the horrid banging and clunking noises that signify components in distress I am reminded that the design was flawed.

You mean something like this?