Which suspension kit would you go for?

[300bhp/ton]

Looking for a suspension kit for a 88" 2.25 diesel Series 3.

It's a pickup (so pretty light weight) and will be used pretty exclusively off road, say 90% of the time. So on road manners are not that important really, nor will high speed performance as the diesel engine will probably only take it up to 60mph or so.

I want it to be very capable and very flexy. It won't be used to hauling or towing just off roading Will probably run some aggressive 265/75R15's like the Insa Turbo's (Simex Extreme Trekker pattern) or maybe even some 33.12.50's if they'll fit without too much hassle.

Here are the kits I've been looking at:

1. Explorer Pro Comp UK £414.75

http://www.explorerprocomp.co.uk/acatalog/...Land_Rover.html

It comes with ES3000 shocks, bushes, U bolts and green British Springs.

I've heard mixed opinions so far on the green springs, are they ok or are they not so good compared to the other springs available?

Also what shocks would work best for my application?

2. CP Components Package A £478.00

http://www.cp-components.co.uk/product_details.asp?pid=61

These have red/maroon springs and ES1000 shocks?

Evidently this kit costs more but is it worth it?

Also again with the shocks?

3. CP Components Custom package £504.00

http://www.cp-components.co.uk/product_details.asp?pid=31

Standard duty springs

Polybush

ES3000 shocks

This is essentially the same as the Package A above but with ES3000 shocks, is the extra money worth it?

4. Heystee Automotive

I'm pretty sure both of these kits are the same, just different suppliers.

http://www.heystee-automotive.com/

http://www.parabolicsuspension.com/landrover/lrover.htm

Kit 715.10.1

Don't know much about these, are these the TIC springs I here mentioned? How good are these kits, the shocks look different are they as good as the Pro Comps?

With all the above kits I'd also add a shackle lift like this one: http://www.cp-components.co.uk/product_details.asp?pid=21

5. Gon2Far

I still like the idea of the Gon2Far setup, but so far I haven't been able to get any availability or pricing from CP Components. Assuming it is still available do you think it would be worth it?

I'm looking for real world ability, I know the Gon2Far looks impressive on the RTI ramp but does anyone have any experience using it off road, such as a trials section or more survive green laning?

Sorry for so long but I would appreciate any insight into these kits.

[Betsy]

See my recent thread. Visit My Website

I used the CP custom package. It says in the thread, but you will probably need extended brake pipes, and 2 degree correction wedges for the front axle. Or a custom prop.

The articulation is astounding compared to before. The ride is still definitly a leaf sprung Land Rover, but my fillings have not worked loose this week

[300bhp/ton]

See my recent thread. Visit My Website

I used the CP custom package. It says in the thread, but you will probably need extended brake pipes, and 2 degree correction wedges for the front axle. Or a custom prop.

The articulation is astounding compared to before. The ride is still definitly a leaf sprung Land Rover, but my fillings have not worked loose this week

Yeah brake lines are on my list no matter the kit (none seem to supply them!!!).

And I'd go for some custom propshafts, CPC has them listed at £180 each which if I'm honest I'm quite happy to pay.

[ltwt1981]

I have parabolics, Paddocks as it happens, not good write ups on here, but mine are OK.

Procomp Shocks, I don't think it makes much difference which, but depends on what you want to do.

Extended shackles, made my own.

235*85*16 Grizzlies.

Mine is OK, about 24 inches of cross axle articulation which is fine for what I do.

Tonk has more articulation as I think has Jon White.

Mine is fine for laning, driving days and recovery which are my three main uses.

I rarely get completely bogged but have a Detroit locker in the back and a Truetrac in the front.

With two Fairey PTO winches front and rear I can get most places if I really want to.

I am hampered by a 2.25 petrol engine and next on the list is more power.

I subscribe to the view that power is OK but gets youu stuck a lot further in, so I went for recovery etc first.

I am relatively happy with this setup on a 88 inch lightweight but I don't do challenge events.

[Jon White]

I'm running Allmakes springs with pro-comp shocks. Tonk has been through most makes of springs in the last few years and IIRC is currently on rocky mountains as these seem to be the best that are currently available. I've had no complaints about my allmakes ones.

Shocks wise I'm running Es3000 rears Es9000 fronts, but the shocks have been repositioned. One tonne shackles front and rear.

You'll need to sort out lots of other things too - its not as simple as it looks! Brake hoses, front propshaft, axle castor angle etc all need sorting out and cause loads of problems! You'll also need to cut out your rear wheel arch boxes for clearance. Mine are raised 3" but they still rub!

I've got a hell of alot of travel - more than alot of coilers in fact! However I reckon alot of what I've done you cant buy in a kit.

Jon

[Jon White]

Bear in mind that if you're going to run those sort of tyres you will snap halfshafts like twiglets!!!

I'm on 285/75/16 grizzlies and have had no end of agro with snapping shafts, diffs, crownwheels etc!

Jon

[Jon White]

Couple of old piccys of mine - its had further mods done to it since these were taken a year or so ago!

Cheers

Jon

[Tonk]

i've been through most makes of spring but run rocky mountains at the moment, its got procomp shocks all round, and also rear shocks on the front, modified mounts too, modified front military shackles on the rear and unfolding shackles on the front.

i've actually limited upward travel on the suspension cos i was killing the springs to often with reverse arcing them, it still has alot of articulation though.

it has more travel than this but ran out of things to drive on, also the front end has changed alot since these photos

[300bhp/ton]

So would you advise ES1000 or ES3000 shocks?

[Tonk]

3000's for a swb, 1000's AFAIK are light duty only. 9000's for heavy duty

[Betsy]

Yeah brake lines are on my list no matter the kit (none seem to supply them!!!).

And I'd go for some custom propshafts, CPC has them listed at £180 each which if I'm honest I'm quite happy to pay.

I will go the custom propshaft route eventually. I will be trying it out on the sand driving course in Marcanterra on Sunday, so hopefully the props will survive until after then!

[Jon White]

I'm running 3000 rears 9000 fronts.

Dont bother with the rubber boots either!

Jon

[MECCANO]

SPAM

CP

2 leave rears. ok if you dont want to carry anything in the rear (on a soft top)

Currently 9000's all around. but i will be fitting the 3000's on the front that i got from Mr White

Oh and im getting axle wrap from them under braking ( with discs )

and damn that chequer plates ugly

My trucks more road biased

[bill van snorkle]

I probably shouldn't bother, but here we go again.Positive axle location(anti tramp anti wrap) is more important than floppy uncontrolled articulation. Due to the swinging shackle location being behind the axle instead of in front, as virtually every other manufacturer of light 4x4's has chosen, leaf Landies experience serious to terminal front axle tramp and front end rearing when the truck is asked to clamber up,over or through offroad obstacles that barely raise a sweat on some of the other brands. Any suspension kit that provides greater vertical wheel movements without addressing the axle tramp issue is probably not worth while and you would be better off staying with less compliant standard suspension and investing your hard earned on difflocks instead. Or do a shackle reversal !

Bill.

[Jon White]

Agree - I've had terrible trouble with front axle tramp destroying axle internals. Currently experimenting with different shocks to try and control it a bit more.

Jon

[FridgeFreezer]

Not been out to play for a while but the 109 had TIC 2-leaf fronts and 4-leaf rears and ES9000's, military shackles and extended brake lines when this was taken:

The one time I ramped it it scored 690 which was fairly respectable, mind you that was the day Tonk beat all the coiler boys and won it

Judging by the damage to the old shock bodies it suffered from a lot of tramp.

Sorry, the coffee's not kicked in yet

[Gremlin]

I have been trying to find a decent solution to the tramp thing, but resorting to tramp bars, top links, and other solutions on the same theme. I have yet to find someone who tried anything (except you bill, on a stage 1 V8 i belive). I have found many solutions via the US sites but space is at a premuim in front.

Shocks do not seem to be the solution and shackle reversals need thicker and straighter main leafs IMO. My current plan is to run a simple bar from the top of the diff to the bumper with a johnny joint at one end. i do not know if this will effect handling or bind the suspension, hence my hesitation to try it.

The ideal solution is to run a anti tramp bar, rearward in parallel with the prop shaft and have the chassis end shackle mounted, do able, but squeezing it all in is the challange.

Grem

[300bhp/ton]

Bill cheers for the info and I agree lockers are probably great, but they are more expensive than suspension, will probably end up breaking other driveline components and are not permissable for competing ALRC events.

[bill van snorkle]

Grem, I think the johnie joint would cause binding and lead to broken main leaves. The tramp rod I made for the stage 1 started as a rear lower control arm from an old Rangey. I cut the 5/8'' dia pin off the chassis end of this arm and welded the stepped pin from the chassis end of a front radius arm to it and then used the standard 2 piece rubber bushings on either side of a bracket made from a piece of 1'' thick steel plate with the approprate size hole bored into it. This bracket bolted to the bottom of the winch bar more or less inline with the front spring bushes. The centre mount for this rod at the axle end was approximately 4'' above the axle centreline. I am probably repeating myself but this vehicle prior to fitting the tramp rod used to wind up its front springs so severely on rough rocky climbs with front difflock engaged that they would eventually and suddenly release this stored up energy so violently that I frequently witnessed the front of the truck leaping completely sideways a distance of about 6 feet in one single bound. The resultant carnage was almost always a destroyed front propshaft, broken main and wrap leaves and knackered shock absorbers. Fitting the tramp rod cured all this and made the truck one of the most capable landeys around, leaf or coil. The only reason I didn't suggest this mod in my earlier posts is that I believe the anti jacking characteristics of a reverse shackle arrangement would also cure the problem, in addition to promoting front end squat as opposed to the dangerous front end rearing, bucking and slewing sideways that often characterises leaf sprung LandRovers when climbing shelves and ledges on steep slopes.

Bill.

[Gremlin]

Hi bill, Thanks for the input, i am assuming that making the tramp rod too ridgid will bind the springs up. Your solution makes more sense as the rubber doughnut bushes will will give a bit while the springs cycle trough the shackle movement.

So the JJ gets shelved and i will proceed with the single tramp rod.

Thanks

Grem

[jericho]

The ideal solution is to run a anti tramp bar, rearward in parallel with the prop shaft and have the chassis end shackle mounted, do able, but squeezing it all in is the challange.

Grem

Yes,the ideal solution,but looking at mine I can't see how to fit it in atall.

I was about to throw out a pair of disco front radius arms yesterday,when I thought - one of those mounted upside down over the axle would make a good strong torsion bar,but I can't see that there is room.

Please do yours and post up some pics.

Axle tramp is the one thing that could make me go coil sprung!

[bill van snorkle]

The ideal solution is to run a anti tramp bar, rearward in parallel with the prop shaft and have the chassis end shackle mounted, do able, but squeezing it all in is the challange.

Grem

I should go back through the archives to check that I haven't written all this previously.

Mounting a tramp bar via a swinging shackle, if you can find space would be ok if you fit stops to limit how far the shackle is able to swing back and forth. The way I see it there are two separate phenomena that goes on with leaf sprung Landy front ends that we tend to call axle tramp. The first one is axle wrap whereby the axle housing torques up in the opposite direction to wheel rotation and tries to bend the leaf spring into a shallow ''S'' profile. This can be controlled with a bar that is rigidly attached to the axle housing and shackled to the chassis. The second phenomena I will call tramp, which is where the axle can move backwards and forwards in relation to the chassis. This problem is still bad but not as severe on Landeys with fairly flat profile springs, but is accentuatated on vehicles with high set springs. The scenario when climbing a steep slope for example, is that when the front axle in 4x4 mode is trying to ''push'' the vehicle forward,via the spring to the front spring hanger, it is not ''pushing'' against a solid straight object, but ''pushing'' against the flexible, arched leaf spring, which instead of immediately transfering the drive thrust to the chassis,just increases its arch even more, storing up a lot of energy until the truck either moves forward or the spring has to rebound to release this stored up energy and violently pushes the axle back to its normal position.The vertical mounting of the Landey shock absorbers can have little effect in controlling this movement. The rear placement of the leaf spring shackles allows this to happen by swinging forward to accomodate the increased spring arch,in addition to causing the front of the chassis to lift, which I call ''jacking or rearing''. With forward shackle placement as in Toyota LandCruisers, Jeeps etc, when the front axle is attempting to ''pull'' in this case not ''push'' the vehicle forward the spring tends to flatten out which has the following effects. Number 1, is that the shackles swing forward towards a more horizontal angle and the chassis is pulled downwards slightly, not jacked up as with the Landey. This has obvious advantages with regard to front end traction as it negates to a degree rather than magnify the effects of front to rear weight transfer on hills allowing the front wheels to do more of their share of the work. Number 2, is that when the axle pulls forward and the spring fattens out ,the connection between the axle and the chassis becomes solid with positive transfer of forward thrust between the axle and the chassis. On the Landey set up this connection can never be solid and positive except when driving in reverse. Anyone ever noticed how much more capable their leaf sprung Landey is at climbing difficult ground in reverse ? Until you break a front axle or U joint that is.

Bill.

[300bhp/ton]

So could you not simply move the shackle to the front instead so as to make it more lile a Jeep setup?

[FridgeFreezer]

I was thinking about that last night after reading Bill's post - and wishing I'd read it before starting the 109 since all the chassis bits are available off the shelf from Paddocks and the like for no money it would probably be a good weekend's work to reverse the shackles.

My only concern, and I have no idea how real it may be, is that having the shackles on the front may affect the steering / on-road handling (in as much as keeping it pointing in a straight line) as you have the extra "wobble" of a shackle on the leading end of the spring rather than trailing along behind.

Bill, can you comment on that at all? I haven't ever paid attention to how other vehicles have their shackles - next time I see a truck with the shackles on the front I'll have to see if there's anything they do to combat this or if it really isn't an issue.

[sheeppimp]

i seem to recall that the very early series one's had the shackles at the front and it was reversed due to vague handling (must have been bad for anyone to notice)

having said that it's on my list of possible future suspension changes