Discussion Topic again

[V8CAMEL]

i think there should be seperate classess for leaf sprung/coil springs and for power steering/ no power steering. "standard height tyres"/ over sized tyres

you want to try driving a series after 38 inch tyres have been trough.

my favourite class Base the value of the punch on the cost/value of the vehicle. Ie the higher the value the lower points you score.

also how about

Electric winches/ other winch types

[white90]

seems far to difficult to get people to look seriously at class structures

the three classes:

Standard- included up to 1 winch/locker/rollcage

Modified-as above but add another locker so 2 winches and two lockers/portal axles

unlimited-these are the tray backs-buggy style vehicles as these are far easier to avoid

damaging bodywork being as most of it has been removed, anything with a percentage

of original body work removed, tyre size no limit but no dumper type tyres to avoid ground damage

would cover most entrants fairly IMHO

then if anyone wants to drive a leaf sprung vehicle with 38" tyres that is up to them.

Cost has sod all to do with class structure.

the classes above will allow new entrants a foot hole into the events without thinking they never stand a chance.

experience counts for far more usually.

[Steve 90]

Tony. I am trying to look seriously at class structures but in my honest opinion I don't think there is a lot wrong with them, Im also quite interested in why you feel they need changing. Im not saying they are perfect, I think that would be impossible but they are pretty good.

O.K. The thing I struggle with here is why should new comers feel they have a chance in their first few events? Surely if they can win that easily without gaining the experience and knowledge and the truck gradually evolving to be a competitive vehicle the organisers have not made it a challenge (after all that's what the event is called) and the more experienced teams need a Kick up the a**e! The Idea is to go and compete then improve till you get to a point where you are competitive. If you water the classes down till anybody can win surely that makes it a hollow victory. If you win when you have a class full of GOOD competition that you beat fairly then you can feel proud of what you have done.

So for argument sake you take the tray backs out and banish them to a class where they make it easy for John Doh the new comer to win coz there's no longer any completion (and frankly if that's the way its going he might as well go to a trophy store and buy his own coz its worth about the same) then Lewis and Russ turn up and wipe the floor with everyone. They do this because they are good at what they do and do it very very well and nothing to do with their truck!

Its slightly off topic but think it sums up the way I feel about making classes to give everyone a chance. I used to race Motocross and was fortunate enough to do it at expert level (although you'd never guess now that ive gained a few lb's ) and I know that I could ride poorly finish in a decent podium place at a local event with not really a high level of completion then go home not feeling great about my day. Another week I'd go to a national event with some fantastic riders, ride the best I could, make no or very few mistakes, Battle hard till the end of every race and just scrape into the top 15!!!!!! These are the races that I look back on with the best memories. The ones where I know I did the best I could and rode as well as I could, Not the ones where I got a trophy because there was nobody else there to have one.

As i see it splitting the Modified class up in any way will just dilute the quality of the class.

[white90]

Steve with only one or two on the standard and modified +1

and other places banning large tyres and wanting portal axled (getting far more common) in a separate class

My view is a buggy style vehicle (this includes traybacks) are easier to get around a site with the risk of body damage

next to gone.

winning a prize isn't the driving factor

more trying to keep new people entering, with standard/modified people can use their everyday car, and the course can be set out to give all a fair go

punches that are very hard and not achievable without body damage get left to the ones happy to try(this may include getting the vehicle bashed about)

and the buggies/tray backs get some serious challenges.

At Slindon this year I watched tray backs doing punches that were nigh on impossible to any vehicle retaining any bodywork, and watched as they reversed through the trees as the tubing brushed aside anything in the way.

Now I'm not that fussed about dents etc(as a look at the 90 will show) but I have spoken with people who are more precious about the cars they own and as such no longer want to enter or don't bother in the first place.

the three classes could be put on the entry form and you could pick which one they wanted to enter (upwards only of course)

[ciderman]

Question; Say for instance that an event was made up with the proposed classes and it was lets say one of James` events , 5 Standard, 12 modified and 1 unlimited entered which would be a very likely senario.

Would the 1 person in unlimited automaticly win his or her class without turning a wheel ? If so I dont think it would be worthwhile entering a competion on your own in your own class.

If this was put into practice then I guess we would have to Use Lardys hardtop 90 to qualify for a class with more competion , And for those who have seen lardy drive his 90 he gets it into places where sometimes a Trayback operator would cringe .

Another question , are Suzukis also going to be classed as they are smaller than a land rover and seem ore capable in tight woodland , and can drive most things without any body damage .

[Steve 90]

Correct me if im wrong but I thought the Std, Std+1 and the new easier style challenge events are meant for people wanting to use their daily driver etc? You cant have a class for everyone. A lot of events, especially the larger ones dont have any classes at all but I do think that some class structure is needed in these smaller event but without getting silly and having a class for everyone from a freeander on mud terrains to a portalled, rear steer buggy type vehicle.

[bishbosh]

I think the key to getting new entrants is to ensure the punches are sufficiently varied to enable all levels to be challenged.

I would be hacked off spending all day driving around at an event looking at punches and dismissing them becasue they were too risky for my vehicle or my abilities. However, if I could be kept busy all day with other punches then I wouldn't care. But then I am not in it to win it. (No really ).

This of course puts a huge onus on the organiser to tailor the punches to the entrants. However, judging by the success of James' events this is not impossible to achieve, it just requires a bit lot of effort.

I may end up with two winches and a locker shortly (pending SWMBO's decision!) which would put me in James' modified class. I bet you £50 I'll still have as much fun, probably more as I will be able to attempt more punches.

If you want to compete to win then you need to either be bluddy good or build your vehicle to suit the class you want to enter and sometimes both! Alternatively, turn up with the vehicle you have, be put in the appropriate class and go enjoy yourself.

[Top90]

At the end of the day too many classes kills the enjoyment.

I used to go trialing and as there were only 2 or 3 vehicles in the class I would win most times and get a plastic trophy.

It actually got boring because there was never any competition.

On the few occasions where a good number turned up for the same class it was more fun as you had to compete.

I still like just 3.

Unmodified (just from winch)

Modified (within restrictions)

Unlimited (anything else) - mainly non-road legal, but that opens another debate about how many road legal trucks aren't.

If I just wanted to get a prize I could buy a plastic trophy much cheaper than driving from Essex to Devon and getting beaten. I do it because they are a nice event and there is real competition in the class.

Richard

[white90]

The biggest turnout at James event would be unlimited IMHO

I'd tick the box to enter that class aswell.

at the moment the standard and standard +1 are the classes sort of entrants.

The AWDC series has now put hydro steering vehicles in a separate class I see.

3 classes is enough, but keeping in mind new people starting out, if they stop coming then

the whole sport becomes the loser.

Just my thoughts but they seem to be only mine so I'll leave it now, for others to discuss/decide

or let the topic fade away.

[jules]

Tony. I am trying to look seriously at class structures but in my honest opinion I don't think there is a lot wrong with them, Im also quite interested in why you feel they need changing. Im not saying they are perfect, I think that would be impossible but they are pretty good.

O.K. The thing I struggle with here is why should new comers feel they have a chance in their first few events? Surely if they can win that easily without gaining the experience and knowledge and the truck gradually evolving to be a competitive vehicle the organisers have not made it a challenge (after all that's what the event is called) and the more experienced teams need a Kick up the a**e! The Idea is to go and compete then improve till you get to a point where you are competitive. If you water the classes down till anybody can win surely that makes it a hollow victory. If you win when you have a class full of GOOD competition that you beat fairly then you can feel proud of what you have done.

So for argument sake you take the tray backs out and banish them to a class where they make it easy for John Doh the new comer to win coz there's no longer any completion (and frankly if that's the way its going he might as well go to a trophy store and buy his own coz its worth about the same) then Lewis and Russ turn up and wipe the floor with everyone. They do this because they are good at what they do and do it very very well and nothing to do with their truck!

Its slightly off topic but think it sums up the way I feel about making classes to give everyone a chance. I used to race Motocross and was fortunate enough to do it at expert level (although you'd never guess now that ive gained a few lb's ) and I know that I could ride poorly finish in a decent podium place at a local event with not really a high level of completion then go home not feeling great about my day. Another week I'd go to a national event with some fantastic riders, ride the best I could, make no or very few mistakes, Battle hard till the end of every race and just scrape into the top 15!!!!!! These are the races that I look back on with the best memories. The ones where I know I did the best I could and rode as well as I could, Not the ones where I got a trophy because there was nobody else there to have one.

As i see it splitting the Modified class up in any way will just dilute the quality of the class.

Motor cross turms

So what your saying is its completly fair for a 6yr old on a 70cc should go head to head against a seasond rider on a 500-600cc scrambler.

Because that basicly what you have just said

(Example could be flawed as I no FA about Bikes)

Your completely right we should scrap all classes and if you don't want to destroy you truck trying to be competertiveyou don't desurve to compete......

At a national competitional level there sould only be one class that no sponser will put money into because he can't sell anything from it.

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Your completely right we should scrap all classes and if you don't want to destroy you truck trying to be competertiveyou don't desurve to compete......

Hey ……. Thats a bit harsh …………that will force out all those that like to 'have a go' and leave the field to those with the most money to spend on their trucks

What about scrapping all the class systems and introducing a handicap system

At the lowest end of the scale,

If you drive to and from the event in a std truck then no handicap points

At the highest end of the scale,

If you trailer your fully tubed, tray back with portals 45 inch tyres and and 10 winches then max handicap points apply……….

I guess this might be simpler that a whole load of classes to administer ?

Ian

[will_warne]

Hey ……. Thats a bit harsh …………that will force out all those that like to 'have a go' and leave the field to those with the most money to spend on their trucks

What about scrapping all the class systems and introducing a handicap system

At the lowest end of the scale,

If you drive to and from the event in a std truck then no handicap points

At the highest end of the scale,

If you trailer your fully tubed, tray back with portals 45 inch tyres and and 10 winches then max handicap points apply……….

I guess this might be simpler that a whole load of classes to administer ?

Ian

Ian, for what it’s worth I think this is a very good way of running things - The Shire LRC have been doing this for years on punch challenges. It means you have fewer problems with classes and you just need someone who knows what they're doing at sign in to work out the handicaps. You could even tailor the handicaps for different events so, say, for more speed based event a LWB vehicle gets a handicap whereas a SWB gets it for a technical event.

[Steve 90]

Motor cross turms

So what your saying is its completly fair for a 6yr old on a 70cc should go head to head against a seasond rider on a 500-600cc scrambler.

Because that basicly what you have just said

(Example could be flawed as I no FA about Bikes)

Your completely right we should scrap all classes and if you don't want to destroy you truck trying to be competertiveyou don't desurve to compete......

At a national competitional level there sould only be one class that no sponser will put money into because he can't sell anything from it.

Nope, Not at all. In MX you have different levels that you work through on a points basis so you get upgraded as you get faster. Because of the speed it would not be safe to have a junior rider on the track at the same time as an expert. I was merely using that as an example that trophies aren't everything, Its having a good day that counts!

Who says you have to destroy your truck, Thats where you have to use your head. The last three events ive done the only bdamage to the outside of the truck has been to loose a door mirror. Not even a broken light lens otherwise.

[lard]

how about everybody goes in a different class so we all get a trophy

[jules]

Nope, Not at all. In MX you have different levels that you work through on a points basis so you get upgraded as you get faster. Because of the speed it would not be safe to have a junior rider on the track at the same time as an expert. I was merely using that as an example that trophies aren't everything, Its having a good day that counts!

Who says you have to destroy your truck, Thats where you have to use your head. The last three events ive done the only bdamage to the outside of the truck has been to loose a door mirror. Not even a broken light lens otherwise.

Exactly points and confidence to progressing to the next level that is what competition is all about.

Everyone has to start at the bottom

Doing away with the classes will wipe that out

As for those that say the new comers class is a waste it's more use for Racing I will admit that.

In the trophy class in 2005 my wife using my old car beat Graham Middleton (the Ex-British gravel champion) she won the class for that year over all. does it make the class pointless because its for new comers

In 04 I won my class in each round I competed in but at the end of the year I was 11th over all in the British championship that may not sound much but the highest place Bowler wildcat was 16th

I was in a 1.8 freelander

When I was competing in challenging the standard classes would have different strategy and rules this would stop them getting in the way of the more capable trucks but that was on some of the smaller events I competed in.

[ciderman]

When I was competing in challenging the standard classes would have different strategy and rules this would stop them getting in the way of the more capable trucks but that was on some of the smaller events I competed in.

Now that is an unfair rule , Especialy on a smaller event , If a standard vehicle gets in the way , then just move onto another section , after all they have paid the same to enter .

[lard]

what class would a trayback with only one winch go into ( no lockers)

[ciderman]

what class would a trayback with only one winch go into ( no lockers)

Unfinished

[bishbosh]

[white90]

Tray back =Unlimited

if you choose not to finish it or not add lockers etc that is personal choice the tray back is the deciding factor in the class.

[ciderman]

What percentage of body work missing will qualify ? I recon this has the same amount of body work as a truck cab .

Its a comprimise between a tray back and a hard top ..

No copying it mind

[Les Brock]

it just gets worse, if you have changed your front wings etc to tube with a outer skin, while you maintain the siloette, you have a distinct advantage over normal wings...(not picking on Tony here just using front bars as an example) but you would !....like wise if you have a tray back, but with normal front wings...do you have any advantage over the tube winged affair...?

Given that most punches you drive into and not reverse into, the fomer has an advantage

any way.....I just enter to enjoy myself...I'd rather be 10th in a class with 30 trucks of any type, than 2nd in a class with 5.

Well....I will when I have a truck again

[white90]

Jase/Lard

a very neat solution indeed/bar the access to the rear load space

no copying from me I like the full Hard top as I use the 90 for all sorts of things apart from off roading.

Les now worries but as I said earlier I'd choose to enter the unlimited class in my own vehicle

no matter where I finish, getting a regular co-driver is always a chore, so each new one takes time to get to know each other

and what we fancy trying.

this thread is going no where really just around and around in circles.

best leave it all as is I guess.

[Les Brock]

I know where there's a available regular co-driver........not very good though ...and lives in Stroud

[Les Brock]

Jase,

Nice solution B) , I've tried the king cab with a full rear tub and did'nt get on with it myself

Who's been an bought all the tyre black