sotal Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 I posted on another topic: http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopi...60&start=60 Anyway it's still doing it! I replaced the fuel filter and air filter tonight, set off and it drives perfectly on normal roads, quick acceleration etc with kickdown, but it tops out at about 55 and struggles to go up hills, whilst struggling the check engine light comes on. The tank was low this morning when it first did it so I thought it had dragged some carp up causing a bit of a blockage which would lead to fuel starvation. The old filter was full to the brim with diesle when I took it off, I tipped it out into a container and it was very clean not a bit of dirt in it (I cleaned it out about 6 weeks ago - meant to change it but it was sunday and the parts place was closed) I put the new one anyway and replaced the air filter. I took the advice of this forum when changing the fuel filter, wipped the old one off, put the new one on and cracked open the bleed screw, started it up and tried to rev through but it cut out and refused to start. So I decided to gently use the lift pump but after a while of no resistance I got bored and took the filter off again and filled it with fuel I put it back on and tried a few more presses of the lift pump lever but still nothng out of the bleed screw, I started it up again and left the bleed screw open expecting fuel to come out - it didn't - I tidied my tools away leaving it on idle, about 5 mins later it cut out, I took the fuel filter off and it was nearly empty, filled it back up again and tightened the bleed screw and it ran fine afterwards (is that normal) So any ideas?? My two guesses are 1 - Lift pump 2 - Sedimenter The lift pump was changed in Aug just before I bought it - whilst investigating another problem in October I noticed that with the out pipe taken off the lift pump I couldn't pump any fuel out, I flicked the engine over to move the cam which spurted loads of fuel out, but still nothing would come out by hand. I looked at emptying the Sedimenter but the drain srew seems to have been snapped off, what's the best thing to do with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRX Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 If nothing is coming out using the manual pump on the lift pump then replace it as the diaphragm is probably shot. this will cause an issue as the injector pump will not be able to draw enough diesel through, sounds like the problem i had and this was the same issue with normal power up to 2000rpm but nothing after. The sedimentor has a 13mm(i think) bolt on top that you can undo and the bowl will come off so you can clean it out. you may need a new O ring for it though to reseal it back up, i think they are a few quid off ebay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 Thanks RRX, I'll have to have a bash at the sedimentor. The car pulls fine all the way through the rev range on the flat, just hills it struggles with and speeds above 50! The lift pump has never pumped manually but the disco has only started with this fault today. I'll attack the sedimentor first as it seems more likely to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAttrill Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Sounds like the lift pump to me, new or otherwise. The ****part ones don't last long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 yep lift pump. i shall tell ye why lift pump fills filter, injection pump draws from filter bleed screw out, no fuel out top, lift pump no pumpy engine run and cut out, injection pump drains filter then sucks air qed lift pump no pumpy ps... sedimenter?? what sedimenter, think mine was bypassed about 9 years ago, in fact ive seen very few with it still in service, it rusts through and it's a pain in the proverbial! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 I think seeing as the sedimenter is knackered anyway that it's going to be removed over the xmas holiday, How did you bypass it - just put a section of pipe in?? It's still doing it today - had to go a very long way to work to avoid the big hill, I was wrong about it pulling fine on the flat, on the flat it pulls up to about 3200rpm then starts jerking about, on a hill it's more like 2200rpm = slow. Don't you just love Land Rovers - they never like to see you bored - as you fix one problem they create another for you to fix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 Can't get a decent lift pump until new year - just the britpart ones and I can't be bothered with the hassle of Britpart. Just got to try and get today and tomorrow out of the disco then it can sit on the drive until new year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 I think you should sell it and buy a Toyota Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 Guess what I sold to buy the Land Rover! I had a 96 Gen 6 Celica, had it for three years - in that time my repairs consisted of two front tyres, and a set of front pads - it never had another fault everything worked, but I've always liked LR's and the series is so easy to fix and maintain! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Martin Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 I looked at emptying the Sedimenter but the drain srew seems to have been snapped off, what's the best thing to do with it? The drain plug on my sedimenter was also broken off, however its very easy (if messy) to get it apart, the bolt on the top is 11mm, I just felt with my hand to find it, (you wont see it by eye), it undid very easily. The sedimenter casing is in two parts with a rubber seal between its top/housing and between each section, once the bolt is out, just pull it away at one side, and get ready to catch the fuel in something, especially when the two sections come apart, it runs up your arm very nicely!. Mine had a bit of carp in it, but since I first cleaned it out, there has been very little in there. Derek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 Thanks Derek - I'll give that a go - I had to stop twice on my way up Ash Bank tonight to let cars come past! Once I've given it a few seconds rest it seems to fill up with fuel and off I go again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 21, 2007 Author Share Posted December 21, 2007 Damn things getting worse - is that usual for a lift pump? Also how would I know if the turbo had gone? Would that just be flat all the time after a point? I'm now struggling up even the slightest incline at 1900rpm, stopping and waiting for 10-20 seconds seems to give me a bit of a burst to get carry on but I'm having to plan where to go. Even on a flat road it's hesitating a bit a slower speeds now and if I try to floor it it starts to go then it feels like your braking then a medium size cloud of smoke comes out the exhaust and you go again, the smoke looked very slightly blue - which normally indicates oil - didn't like to do it too many times to check the colour. Just got to get home tonight then it's going to be parked up and I can have a fiddle with it over xmas - just hope it is the lift pump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 22, 2007 Author Share Posted December 22, 2007 The drain plug on my sedimenter was also broken off, however its very easy (if messy) to get it apart, the bolt on the top is 11mm, I just felt with my hand to find it, (you wont see it by eye), it undid very easily.The sedimenter casing is in two parts with a rubber seal between its top/housing and between each section, once the bolt is out, just pull it away at one side, and get ready to catch the fuel in something, especially when the two sections come apart, it runs up your arm very nicely!. Mine had a bit of carp in it, but since I first cleaned it out, there has been very little in there. Derek. Thanks for the tips there, you were right it was an 11mm bolt, and it was messy ran straight down my arm to my armpit! You can see the bolt on top though, I slid down the dirve on the opposite side of the diff, then you could sort of sit up, the sedimenter was full of semi frozen brown jelly type stuff, which I cleaned out. I checked the tank through the inspection hole and the diesel is very clean as is the bottom of the tank. I replaced the sedimenter and changed the fuel filter, the fuel in the old filter was very clean. All of that didn't do anything, I manged to get it so the lift pump would work manually and would fill the filter, the engine would then start but it would cut out after a minute or so, the filter would then be almost empty and on removing it it would hiss. I checked the pipe from the lift pump to the tank and I could blow bubbles in the tank from the engine bay so that seemed fine, ended up bypassing the lift pump with a bit of rubber pipe and it ran perfectly, took it for a spin and it performed perfectly normal, didn't get chance to test the top speed but it freely went up to 75mph and ran up the hills fine, no noticeable difference. So it looks like the lift pump is knackered. The lift pump that is on is a Delphi which I was told was quite a good make, it was put on 4-5 months ago just before I bought it (still looks brand new). The fault occured whilst going up hill with a low tank on a freezing morning, so I presume the watery crud in the sedimentor frooze and expanded lifting sediment up and it's sucked some crud up which is now blocking something internally in the lift pump. Is it possible to clean this out? I'm going to get a new one in the new year - just wondered for the mean time? Also do you actually need the lift pump on the EDC ones? As I say it's running perfectly well without it - Would I be better to make a more permanant bypass solution? Any other thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Martin Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 Also do you actually need the lift pump on the EDC ones? As I say it's running perfectly well without it - Would I be better to make a more permanant bypass solution?Any other thoughts? Sorry it's not a problem I've had with mine (yet!). I don't suppose it had any biodiesel run through it has it?, it if has maybe that would be effect the pump seals etc? I'm considering running mine on Bio so I'd be interested in any problems. I've run a tank of 50/50 diesel/bio through my peugeot 205 and been quiet impressed so far (now smells like a chip shop driving past!), but the supplier near fessy park has run out, so I won't get chance to try it until later (I'm trying making a test batch myself over Christmas, should be fun!). I'm surprised that the engine will run without the lift pump, maybe once the fuel lines are full the main injection pump can pull it from the tank? can you tell if this has had any effect on the CEL problem yet?. With the pump off the car can you operate it by hand and get it to pump fuel through?, or maybe force fuel through under pressure to clean it out? I seem to remember reading in a forum (maybe here, not sure) that operating the lever by hand can damage the pump. Mine is still running ok! Have a good Christmas etc. Derek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 23, 2007 Author Share Posted December 23, 2007 Just bog standard diesel since I've owned it, and it all looked clean etc so I don't think it had, had any veg oil or biodiesel through it. I've still had very little CEL activity since unplugging and re-seating the ECU, it did come on the other day but I think that was due to the lack of fuel and it hasn't been on since, but I've only done a few miles - just going to wait till beam ends can get an OEM lift pump for me in the new year and fit that. I've not actually taken the lift pump off the car yet, might try that if I get a minute, got to fit a kitchen over xmas so won't get much time to look at it, probably just as easy to replace the lift pump as it's only £27. Still not spotted your disco in Werrington yet! Seen a couple of others but not yours. Anyway have a good xmas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 Just to let you know what happened with it... The old lift pump was a DELPHI one, fitted about 4-5 months ago, I worked out that there was a blockage in it as it was creating a vacuum in the fuel filter. I ended up bypassing the lift pump with a length of rubber pipe - this worked fine. I then purchased a new one as everything I had ever read pointed to the fact you couldn't do anything to fix lift pumps, I fitted the new one and all was fine - the new one is an OEM one although no maker stamped on it. I then started to look at the DELPHI one, I removed the screw on the top (it isn't there on the new one) and the top of the lift pump came off, inside there was a filter which was completely blocked with black gunge, so a quick clean out and it seems to operate correctly again. So it appears what happened was that with it being a freezing morning the water in the sedimentor had frozen a bit and expanded pushing up the black gunge from the bottom of the sedimentor, this combined with the low fuel tank made it suck the black gunge up which the first place it goes to is the lift pump. The fine mesh filter in the top of the lift pump then blocked instantly and it suffered a lack of fuel. Seems a daft place to put a filter to me as it's before the main fuel filter and it's finer - I presume they don't normally have a filter in them? and I could remove the filter and keep the lift pump as a spare? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy mad Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 we have had this problem with two of the vans at work sound the same turbed out to be carp that blocked the flow from the tank the filters wear clean and fill of fuel but when running the blockage just restricted it anoth to be bad with load or up hills might be of help or not we just cleaned out tanks and rain fine ever since Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 The tank was very clean, just the sedimentor was full of carp and the extra filter in the lift pump (which I don't think should be there) was full of crud stopping the flow. It got so bad that in the end I could drive up the slope on my drive to get out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I've had that problem with my lift pump - but then I was running on some very fishy stuff . I just pulled out the filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynall Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Porblem is if you remove that filter all the **** will go into your injector pump which costs a lot more than a lift pump! Just clean it out on each service thats if you refit it. Lynall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 Why would it go into the injection pump?? The lift pump is before the fuel filter so that carp will get filtered out in the fuel filter, the problem as I see it is that you start with the sedimentor to get the big bits, then you have a really fine filter in the lift pump which catches everything then you have the fuel filter which is left with no job to do what-so-ever. I guess that's why the fuel filter was so clean! It would make sense if the lift pump was fitted after the fuel filter but it seems retarded to me to fit a fine filter there. Please correct me if I'm wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RRX Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Afaik there should be no filter before the pump and only the main filter after the pump. i would remove it and join the 2 pipes and let the main filter do its work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted January 15, 2008 Author Share Posted January 15, 2008 sorry it's not a seperate filter. If you take the top section of a DELPHI lift pump then there is a filter in there, If any one else has problems with their lift pump I would check if it's got a removable top - if it has remove the filter and it'll get you running again. I haven't put it back on mine, but I'll keep it spare incase this lift pump dies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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