SIIa Hybrid build has begun; finally.

[XtremeMarineInc]

Well; after almost two years of hoarding and collecting parts for my "Ultimate Leafer" build; I have finally gotten to the beginnings of my assembly stage. Everything has been dissassembled from their various donors; acquired; or bought. Now the components are getting sandblasted, and then off to the paint booth for painting.

Where I stand now is this:

1960's vintage SIIa SWB frame, LHD.

Haystee parabolic springs with all greasable bushings fitted.

1981 SIII 109 axles, and shackles, RHD.

I am mounting the 109 axles in a spring over axle (SOA) set-up. And the parabolics will be fitted to the frame using the 109 shackles. The frame has been modified to use twin front shocks. Then I will be using extended wheel studs and using Wolf wheels, fitted with beadlocks, and 35x10.5x16 Interco Boggers for tires.

I need to know if the RHD axle can be converted easily to the LHD chassis? It looks like the lower kingpin mounts just need to be replaced with a set from a LHD 109 axle. If that is so, can they be sourced easily enough in the UK?

I removed the rear hubs and the axle shafts in the rear are 24 spline outers. Can I assume that the front axle, equipped with Fairey FWH, are also 24 spline? And if so; in 81' were the inners 24 spline as well? Are the carriers 2 or 4 pin in this era? And is the front axle in any way a HD unit, to go along with the salisbury, or just a Standard duty unit?

Also; can anybody tell me if I can get a diff guard for a 109 rear axle? I see equipe units, and Paddock, and others but they all say for 110 salisbury's.

Thanks.

[sotal]

I removed the rear hubs and the axle shafts in the rear are 24 spline outers. Can I assume that the front axle, equipped with Fairey FWH, are also 24 spline? And if so; in 81' were the inners 24 spline as well? Are the carriers 2 or 4 pin in this era? And is the front axle in any way a HD unit, to go along with the salisbury, or just a Standard duty unit?

From what I recently found out from October 1980 they are 24 spline outers / 10 spline inners

[Gremlin]

Being in the US youmight be better off getting a Dana 60 cover for the sals, it will fit.

Grem

[Jon White]

Is the rear axle a salisbury or not? If its a salisbury it'll be 24 spline both ends and fairly strong. If its a rover axle it'll be 10 spline inners and you'll snap halfshafts like twiglets.

Fronts should be 24 spline outer (but might be 10 spline) and will be 10 spline inner. Fronts are fairly strong, but you'll snap the inner ends of the inner shafts with those tyres.

Standard rover diffs are 2 pin. You'll also break 4.7 ring and pinions for a hobby.

I run 33's with ARB lockers front and rear and have broken no end of shafts, diffs etc. IMHO with lockers 33" is about the sensable limit on rover axles as things just arent strong enough!

Anything much bigger than 33" and you're on very very borrowed time with standard series axles.

Axle can easily be converted to LHD by simple swapping the steering arms over for LHD ones.

If you're going to run the axles SOA check that propshafts are actually possible, as with parabolics the u/j's on my props bind before i've reached full travel and I'm not running SOA. I'm already running hi-angle ones!

HTH

Jon

[XtremeMarineInc]

From what I recently found out from October 1980 they are 24 spline outers / 10 spline inners

Maybe I'll have to pull one axle out and check to be safe, then. Thanks.

[XtremeMarineInc]

Being in the US youmight be better off getting a Dana 60 cover for the sals, it will fit.

Grem

Are you SURE the Dana 60 cover will fit with no problems? If so, that would definitely be a cheaper route, as I could source one statesside and save the shipping charges. That would allow me to buy a much higher quality cover/guard.

Thanks.

SideNote; If a Dana 60 cover fits; will a Dana 60 cover plate seal/gasket fit as well. I'd hate to pay shipping for a single gasket from the UK, and most U.S. Rover parts companies don't stock parts for the Salisbury's.

[XtremeMarineInc]

Is the rear axle a salisbury or not? If its a salisbury it'll be 24 spline both ends and fairly strong. If its a rover axle it'll be 10 spline inners and you'll snap halfshafts like twiglets.

Fronts should be 24 spline outer (but might be 10 spline) and will be 10 spline inner. Fronts are fairly strong, but you'll snap the inner ends of the inner shafts with those tyres.

Standard rover diffs are 2 pin. You'll also break 4.7 ring and pinions for a hobby.

I run 33's with ARB lockers front and rear and have broken no end of shafts, diffs etc. IMHO with lockers 33" is about the sensable limit on rover axles as things just arent strong enough!

Anything much bigger than 33" and you're on very very borrowed time with standard series axles.

Axle can easily be converted to LHD by simple swapping the steering arms over for LHD ones.

If you're going to run the axles SOA check that propshafts are actually possible, as with parabolics the u/j's on my props bind before i've reached full travel and I'm not running SOA. I'm already running hi-angle ones!

HTH

Jon

Jon; Thanks so much for the info.

The rear is definitely a Salisbury. 10 bolt cover plate. Looks like a narrow Dana 60 with drum brakes. I know the rear outers are 24, and over 1 inch diameter shafts, since I pulled the hub coverplates. Was worried about the inners. I think the front is some HD unit to work with the rear Sals. The depth of the diff from centerline of axle tube, to pinion flange is 11 1/2", whereas the stock 88" rover axle had 10 1/2" for that same measurement. Though the diff pan looks like a standard Rover axle design.

I thought the later SIII axles were running 3.54 diffs? If this is 4.7 like earlier series, then I'd be happier, since I would not have to change diffs out. I want the 4.7 ratio. I will only be running a Detroit in the back. Not planning on locking the front as of yet.

I thought I saw on one of the Bill Van Snorkle threads; that someone is making a HD 30 spline upgrade for the Salsbury? If that is so; I will try to get that to work with the 35"'s.

As far as steering is concerned; that was my big worry, so I feel much better that it can be converted. Now I just have to source the steering arms. Finding late SIII 109" stuff over here is tough. I've got 88" axles all over the place.

Question: If I can just swap over; is there any possibility that I could just swap sides on what I have (from the RHD), and flip to the top? I was just thinking that because of the SOA configuration, maybe I would want to go high steer anyways. And if it is possible; then using the RHD axle would be beneficial. By swapping sides, and also swapping bottom to top, the angles and shape of the steering arm would still be correct. In essence swapping all four king pins in an"X" fashion, so as the steering link, at the lower one corner, would become the high steer on the opposite top corner???

I'm not sure about the propshafts; but not really worried about it either, lol! Bill Davis at GBR in Utah is making me custom ones. But I have to wait until the axles are mounted under the parabolics, and I have the perches welded correctly to keep the pinion angles close to stock SUA 88" angles. Then I have to mount the trans/t-case in place. With that; I can give him lengths, and pick up the opposite corners with my forklift, to get the flex distances. With that info, he can make me up a set. Probably some type of double-cardon set-up is my guess.

Thanks again.

[2aspecial]

tom woods makes double-double cardon shafts for landrover front ends. definately worth a look .. thats what im gonna use on my 2a soa.

[2aspecial]

the 109 1 tons used to run on 9.00x16 tyres from the factory, they had env axles, try and source a salisbury 4.7 front, some 109 v8 had them.

[Jon White]

No worries.

Right.......

Salisbury rear is good, and about as strong as you can get from the factory. I'm no expert on them however so I'm unsure quite how much abuse they can put up with.

Front diffs are all the same from the factory. 88" and 109" are both exactly the same. I've no idea what you've got though as I've never come accross anything different. The only exception is a 109" 1 tonne which is a very rare beast indeed!

All series axles are 4.7 ratio. The only ones that were 3.54 were the stage1 V8's.

Steering arms are all the same part 88" or 109". If you've got some 88" ones then swap em over. You cant swap em top to bottom as the bearings etc are different sizes top and bottom. However early series 2's had top steer arms so if you can find the bits it is possible to change em over. However as they're curved it puts the track rod in virtually the same place anyway so you wont gain very much.

Jon

[XtremeMarineInc]

All right, then. Sounds like a plan. If I can't fit the tops to the bottoms, and vice versa; I'll have to live without the high steer idea. I have a set of 1964 SIIA axles from a LHD in the carport, so I'll swap over their steer arms to make my 109 front LHD. Won't have to worry about the diffs. Must be 4.7's, as my donor 109 was a 1981 model manufactured in late 1980. Before the Stage I V8 was available to the public.

If you're going to source propshafts from th U.S.; might as well get them from GBR instead of Tom Woods. Bill is Rover specific, Tom makes stuff for everybody.

[FridgeFreezer]

The rear is definitely a Salisbury. 10 bolt cover plate. Looks like a narrow Dana 60 with drum brakes. I know the rear outers are 24, and over 1 inch diameter shafts, since I pulled the hub coverplates. Was worried about the inners.

The sals is 24sp all the way through, it's only the later Rover diffs than changed to 24sp hubs to share parts with the sals setup. The diffs were all 10sp.

Diff gasket comes in a squeezy tube

[2aspecial]

the 109 1 tons used to run on 9.00x16 tyres from the factory, they had env axles, try and source a salisbury 4.7 front, some 109 v8 had them.

what i should have said was...109 v8, had 3.54 diffs. but dont know if a rear salisbury 4.7 diff. might fit the front v8 axle(i dont see why the factory would make 2 types when they could easily do with one)the casings look identical) cheers.ady.

[FridgeFreezer]

what i should have said was...109 v8, had 3.54 diffs. but dont know if a rear salisbury 4.7 diff. might fit the front v8 axle(i dont see why the factory would make 2 types when they could easily do with one)the casings look identical) cheers.ady.

The Stage 1 V8 front was a Rover axle, only the back axle was salisbury. Both were 3.54:1. The 1-ton had Salisbury fronts to 1974, then what looks like a 4-pin Rover diff from there onwards (just looking at the parts book). The Stage 1 V8, 1-Ton and 6cyl shared various components (EG the large drum brakes) but were not the same all round.

ENV & Salisbury were used on the Forward controls but they're a whole different and slightly weird kettle of fish.

[XtremeMarineInc]

Thanks Fridge. Good to hear from you on this thread. Haven't taked to you in a while.

So that's all settled then. The rear is 24 spline throughout. The front is 24 spline outers, and 10 spline inners. And the diff ratios are 4.7, with the rear diff being a 24, and the front diff being a 10. And there is a possibility that they have 4 pin carriers, as they were sourced from an 81'. So that is what I will go with unless someone else chimes in with new information.

I added a steering arm from a IIa 88" LHD axle to connect to my LHD frame. But I am going to leave the RHD arm attached for now. I am thinking it would make a great attachment point if I needed to go to a hydraulic assist steering system, with these 35"'s. I could attach the movable arm of the hydraulic ram to the steering arm, that way; and have one less mount to fabricate.

I am also going to do more research on the brake upgrades. I have been told that there is something I can do to the master cylinder, wheel cylinders, and backing plates of the 11" brakes to severely make the braking better. And i kept the master cylinder from the 109' with the bigger reservoir, and two line output. Have the entire assembly from the reservoir, to the pedal.

I also think I am going to order extended wheel studs from Zeus since I will be fitting WOLF wheels with beadlocks to these axles. Doesn't seem to be that much usable threads on the existing SIII studs.

[FridgeFreezer]

And there is a possibility that they have 4 pin carriers, as they were sourced from an 81'.

I doubt it. The salisbury rear is always 4-pin, 99.9% of Rovers are 2-pin. That's the standard LWB setup from late Series 2 109's right up to late 110's. It's because the back takes more weight and more stress in the LWB models.

I am thinking it would make a great attachment point if I needed to go to a hydraulic assist steering system, with these 35"'s.

You'll be wanting vastly uprated axle internals if you're planning on going crawlin' in a Series on 35's, TBH you're better off fitting different axles. I wouldn't trust the Series steering links to hold up to too much either, you'll need to beef them up a bit, especially if you're going hydro. That said, my PAS conversion turns 37's easier than most LR's turn 31's.

I have been told that there is something I can do to the master cylinder, wheel cylinders, and backing plates of the 11" brakes to severely make the braking better.

Fitting the brake system that was on the 6cyl, Stage 1, and 1-ton will give you better (in fact quite good) stopping power until you get them wet or muddy. Ultimately, they still suck and require regular adjustment. Another reason to fit different axles with discs as standard.

I also think I am going to order extended wheel studs from Zeus since I will be fitting WOLF wheels with beadlocks to these axles.

I'd seriously look at your options and work out what you want this truck to do before spending out on stuff like that. SOA, 35's and hydro steer on a Series drivetrain suggests you're going to end up spending an absolute pile of cash upgrading axle parts, and that's before you get to things like disc brakes which are either a pile of cash, or a whole load of effort. You have the good fortune to live in the land of cheap and plentiful big fat axles and easily available upgrades and custom parts, I'd make the most of it if I were you.

You'll also need anti-wrap if you're going SOA, and probably even if you're not.

Spend a few extra dollars, go the whole hog and drop some portals under it. Or, build it up pretty much as standard, put some small tyres on it and hone your driving skills. No-one's impressed if you get a lockered rig on 44's up a trail. If you get a stock 88 half way, they're amazed.

[XtremeMarineInc]

Fridge; The whole point of this build is to make an "old-school" Leafer project. Something a Rover owner would build in the 70's, using 70's technology, on an 60's framed Rover. For trialing, or comps. I have the DII with all RTE and GBR stuff, and the RRC on Equipe stuff. Now I want an old leafer done up. I won't be "crawling" or "mudbogging" with it. Lord, I went to private schools. I won't be taking this out with a bunch of colonial rednecks. And in Florida, there's no rocks to crawl on anyways. This will be for sand, sugar-sand, and mud. If I was going to go 37's or 40's; then I would do portals. In fact I am thinking about having Jez source me some portals for the DII after it's paid off; as I like the look of Rik'sLandy's DII on portals over in the UK; at least when he was still running 40's. He's gone too big now; IMHO.

Eventually, I may fit discs front; but for now; it goes away from the whole idea of the build. So I will just do the brake modifications that were available in the old days for LWB brakes. The SOA is quite cheap as long as you have a protractor, a welder, and a grinder. And some fabrication skills; that is why I am doing it. HydroSteer would also be cheap for me, as I am in the marine business and can source many boat components for the system at cost. The 35" Boggers are quite expensive, but I have to go with beadlocks as I will be airing down quite low in the sugarsand and mud. Considering this truck will not see pavement, only loose earth conditions, I think the Sals will handle the 35's no problem. I will be putting in HD axle components in the front, along with a TrueTrac 4 pin carrier front diff. So the front may be an issue, but that's why I like the ability to disconnect the 4wd if there's a problem. I can always drop it in 2wd and limp back to the trailer.

As far as axles go; to stay true to the idea of the project; I am staying with Rover sourced components. I paid less than 500.00 u.s. for the Sals and front axle from the 81'; so for the money, quite a bit of uprated drivetrain over stock SIIa already. I know the u.s. has plenty of big axles; but they're american made stuff. And this country sucks at building or making anything with any sort of quality control. Besides; I don't want some cobbled up redneck rig that some ignorant, uneducated, inbred american would make. I am an Italian, and my truck is English. And it's staying English. I'll definitely be going with anti-wrap; and will be in future contact with you since yours has worked out so well already.

[Tony Jones]

Sorry to stick my Neb in here guys, i'm not looking to advise or comment on the technical aspect or engineering advice thus far given but Xtrememarine I really love the idea behind the whole project. It's good old fashioned blacksmith engineering at its best mate.

I love the sound of this, can't wait to see how you progress and how she looks. Top effort mate

[XtremeMarineInc]

Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Want it to be what our fathers would say; "Hey; I did that in the old days, lol."

[FridgeFreezer]

Fridge; The whole point of this build is to make an "old-school" Leafer project. Something a Rover owner would build in the 70's, using 70's technology, on an 60's framed Rover.

But with SOA and 35's and hydro steer...

Most 70's traillers from what I can tell were an old 80' with a set of 7.50's.

as I like the look of Rik'sLandy's DII on portals over in the UK;

Oh Jesus no... that thing's an abortion.

As far as axles go; to stay true to the idea of the project; I am staying with Rover sourced components. I paid less than 500.00 u.s. for the Sals and front axle from the 81'; so for the money, quite a bit of uprated drivetrain over stock SIIa already.

Well, a stronger back axle. The fronts are the same.

Besides; I don't want some cobbled up redneck rig that some ignorant, uneducated, inbred american would make.

...but with SOA and 35's and hydro steer, like some American would make

[Tony Jones]

Fridge; The whole point of this build is to make an "old-school" Leafer project. Something a Rover owner would build in the 70's, using 70's technology, on an 60's framed Rover.

But with SOA and 35's and hydro steer...

Most 70's traillers from what I can tell were an old 80' with a set of 7.50's.

Aye, but perhaps they were a little lacking in the imagination then? Technically they could have used the early RR steering, mind you there is still the sticking point of the tyres - were they available in 35" back then?? Even if they weren't one can use a little, "Artistic Liscence" If he was going absolutely faithful then he wouldn't be using components from an early 80's vehicle, unfortunately one must be practical about their dreams unless of course you've got a very understanding Bank Manager!!

[FridgeFreezer]

Don't get me wrong, as long as it's done well I don't care what people do to their trucks (as long as it's not putting coils on or fitting a f**ing 200TDi), I'm just struggling a little bit with the concept of some of this, the reasons behind it.

[XtremeMarineInc]

LOL! The main reason is that every time I break the DII, it costs at least 5,000.00 to fix it. LOL! And the 35"'s, yeah that's a little bit of fudge factor there, I know they didn't have anything like Boggers back then. But building a truck like this, and then throwing on tractor tires just wouldn't make sense. Hell; if Rover could build the Agri-Rover on Rover axles; I should be able to make this work. And the 80's parts; well they were available in the late 70's, so let's not get too picky here gentlemen. Otherwise you'll start sounding like the colonial pricks on Pirate. You don't want to start sounding like colonial pricks, now do you?

[FridgeFreezer]

Hell; if Rover could build the Agri-Rover on Rover axles; I should be able to make this work.

I'm a bit patchy on my inane trivia, but I'm pretty sure the Agri Rover didn't have normal Rover axles. It'd never pull the gearing for starters. The later Ag-Rovers (Defenders) had MD Portals.

[Jon White]

I'm a bit patchy on my inane trivia, but I'm pretty sure the Agri Rover didn't have normal Rover axles. It'd never pull the gearing for starters. The later Ag-Rovers (Defenders) had MD Portals.

Correct - i had a poke round the one thats in the yard down at dunsfold the other day, and it most certainly did NOT have rover axles on it!

Jon