Bobtail-Jay Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 hi all i want to build a cage for my bobtail and was just woundering if blue band pipe is ok i will not be doing any competing in it ,it will just be for p+p days ? does it bend easy what sort of bender will i need? and whats good places to get it from? and what sort of price am i looking to pay i see some one on here said it was £4.50 a metre last year some time? cheers jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizla 1 Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Blue band is MSA approved - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 I bought 20-metres of blue band (BS EN 10255) - also referred to as gas pipe. Safe/recommended/approved for roll cages. I also bought a Sealey 10-ton pipe bender. What you buy to bend it with is the problem - some are real rubbish (mostly the formers), which kink, flatten to some extent, or otherwise damage the pipe. Whatever you do - don't use scaffold poles! Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 without spending a lot of money on a decent bender you'll find it difficult. the normal clarke jobbies aren't up to scratch. i've got a full cage & tray made out of cds and it's the best money i've spent i got some 1 1/4" blue band for other jobs which i bent fine, but the 2" (well 48mm) stuff i battled with. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 made out of cds ABBA, Kylie, Charlotte Church, Male voice choir? Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Wightman Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 ABBA, Kylie, Charlotte Church, Male voice choir? Les Careful Les, you might be accused of humor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobtail-Jay Posted November 18, 2008 Author Share Posted November 18, 2008 ok will 48.3 with 3mm wall seemed tube be ok from a steel wholesales? i wont be competing jst p+p days ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian M Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Blue band is MSA approved - where does it says this under roll cage material spec? i cant find it in my blue book? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizla 1 Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 2008 book - page248 - section 301 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian M Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 thats for spaceframes? the specs for roll cage material is on page 155 and conts over on 156, it states cold drawn steel (CDS)! blue band is seamed and doesnt have a high enough yield strength! if you only doing pay and play days then its fine, however if or when winch challenges go MSA it wouldnt pass scruiteneering! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizla 1 Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Trust me I'm right as an ex national B - msa scrutineer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 ^^^^ He's right trust him (well, you won't trust me ) BB Is approved, look under the tubes sizes options and wall thickness etc, it says something like BS1387 it does not say "Blue Band Red Band" as these are more names its known as I think rather than as BS1387 which is the approved code for BB RB I can't look it up in my MSA Blue Book as it has been loaned to a certain Forumeer Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diff Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 The MSA covers roll cage structures for all forms of motorsport. Blue Band and Red band IS suitable for cross country vehicles under the MSA regulations. The AWDC is the largest national off road club and uses the MSA blue book as the basis for its technical regulations If you build your roll cage to the AWDC tech regs, it will be suitable. Here are the AWDCs roll cage requirements for 'safari' competitions (speed events) and compliance with these regs will give you a very strong and safe cage, suitable for trials, safaris and challenge events: 9.19 Roll over bars/cages Aluminium alloy roll over bars and roll cages are banned in all forms of motorsport where a roll cage is required to be fitted. Full roll cages as per drawing 2 below are mandatory in all classes. a. General Considerations i. The basic purpose of the roll over bar is to protect the driver/passenger if the vehicle turns over or is involved in a serious accident. This purpose should not be forgotten, and in consideration of this, all roll bars and roll cages should be built to the following RAC specifications, as detailed in Paragraph 9.19.b (below) or to an approved Cross Country Vehicle and Four Wheel Drive design, which should in any case incorporate many of the provisions detailed therein. ii. The roll over bar/cage must be designed to withstand compression forces resulting from the weight of the vehicle coming down on the roll bar/cage structure, and to take fore and aft loads resulting from the vehicle skidding along the ground on its roll structure. iii. All classes must have a full roll cage with two rear facing braces and a cross brace situated either within the main rear hoop or as close as possible to it as in Drawing 1 below. b. Fabrication i. The main hoops and rear braces must connect direct to the chassis by either welding or bolting. One continuous length of tubing must be used for the hoop member with smooth continuous bends and no evidence of crimping or wall failure. ii. All welding must be of the highest quality with full penetration. Wherever possible gas shielded arc welding should be used. iii. For space frame vehicles, it is important that the roll bar structure is attached in such a way as to spread the load over a wide area. The roll bar should be designed as an extension of the frame. iv. For monocoque vehicles, consideration should be given to using a 360 degree hoop completely around the inside of the vehicle, thus substituting for a frame. v. Braces should be of the same size tubing as used for the main structure, their fixing should be located as near as possible to the top of the roll bar, and in any case, at a minimum of three quarters of the height of the roll bar. vi. The mounting plates of the roll bar braces to the chassis must be of steel plate of minimum thickness 3mm, welded, riveted or bolted onto the chassis. The total surface area of each plate should be not less than 120sq cm of which at least one third connects with a chassis vertical member. The chassis outrigger to carry the roll bar mounting must be a minimum of 75mm x 50mm x 3mm box section. vii. The mounting of the main roll bar hoop(s) must be secured with at least three high tensile steel bolts and nuts (either hexagonal headed or cap head bolts of minimum diameter 8 mm/0.315 in). The attachment plate to the roll bar braces must be of the same thickness as the wall of the tube. When the roll bar rests on a box member of the latter, it must be locally reinforced by a structure constituted of either welded bolt heads or welded tubing ends. viii. Removable connections used in roll bar design should conform to the recommendations within the MSA blue book. ix. Bolts and nuts used should be of highest quality steel (preferably aircraft standards) and be of sufficient minimum diameter according to the number used. Square head bolts and nuts are prohibited. c. Closed Vehicles - as a general rule, the safety roll over bar structure must be made of two hoops, one behind the front seats and the other following the windscreen pillars (Refer to current MSA yearbook for full details of all drawings). The structure must be constructed in such a way as not to obstruct access to the front seats and not encroach upon the driver/passenger space. It may encroach upon the rear passenger space. The main hoops must be placed as near as possible to the roof. It is permissible to mount a longitudinal support at door level providing it forms part of the structure and is of similar tube dimensions. It may be welded in or located with approved couplings. It must not be higher than one third of the door height above the sill and angled at more than 5 degrees with the horizontal. d. Open Vehicles - to the same specifications as Closed Vehicles, except the main hoop must be symmetrical about the longitudinal centre line of the car and complying with current MSA drawings. e. Other Considerations i. An effective roll over bar must be fitted of a height not less than 50mm at its top edge above the helmet of the normally seated driver. It must be wider than the driver’s shoulders at that height. It must be constructed of steel tubing of minimum 44.30mm diameter with a minimum wall thickness of 3.2mm. It should have a hole of 6mm drilled in the underside for checking the tube thickness. It should have the top bar straight or curved, but not tubes meeting in an inverted ‘V’. It must be effectively braced to a structural member. ii. Closed vehicles the main roll over bar hoop must be placed as near to the roof as possible. iii. Non-standard vehicles are advised to fit a safety roll over bar to the following minimum requirements: minimum height 710mm from the rear of the uncompressed seat cushion, of minimum flat width 380mm running into radius corners and affording driver and passenger equal protection. It must be mounted to a structural member with front mountings not less than the cockpit width and braced rearward. f. Diagonal Struts - these should be fitted such that the upper forward joint is on the driver’s side of the vehicle to add further support in the area of the driver’s head. g. Materials - (All dimensions represent minimum requirements.) Tube Specification: Cold drawn seamless carbon steel, minimum yield strength 350 N/sq.mm. An alternative material is BS1387 medium weight blue band, dimensions being 44.30 mm x 3.2mm for vehicles up to 1000kg or 48.00mm x 3.2mm for vehicles exceeding 1000kg. All diameters are outside diameters. In all groups recognized manufacturers may utilize a roll over bar of free conception as regards material and tube thickness providing it is able to withstand three simultaneously applied loads:1.5 w lateral5.5 w fore and aft 7.5 w vertical w = weight of vehicle plus 75 kg. Roll over bars of this type must be supported by a duly signed and completed Safety Roll Bar Certificate. The roll bar manufacturer must be registered with the MSA Ltd. Titanium is prohibited. h. Roof – all vehicles must be fitted with a solid roof panel. Specification for roof is a panel which is sufficiently strong enough to protect the occupants in the event of a rollover. The panel must cover all occupants adequately. An MSA scrutineer has the final decision as to what is sufficient. When fitted to the roll cage, the panel should not be riveted into the tubing, but to a welded on flange. You can find these regs on the AWDC web site. Hope this helps, Regards, Diff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian M Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 you can go on forever opening cans of worms with this topic! what gets me is cds needs to have a minimum yeild strengh of 350, however bs1387, (which does not exist anymore as bs (british standards) has been superceeded by european standards) only has a yeild strength of 180-190. strange! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 If you want successfully bend "blue band" with a Clarke bender then insist on buying British Chorus steel, it resists kinking a bit more than our imported cheap stuff, but pays for itself in wastage and strength. The boys who fit this stuff for a living (heating systems etc) who buy from Stockports "Booles Tools" will only use imported pipe for straights but when they are bending, they use the Chorus stuff (I know it's owned by Indians but they have apparently not lessenend the quality) and they insist that is the most cost effective way. I hope that may help or explains things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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